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Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested!)

Buying or building computers for Hauptwerk, recommendations, troubleshooting computer hardware issues.
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162_Ranks

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Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested!)

PostThu Jan 29, 2015 2:52 pm

I'll bet this has been hashed out a few times already, but it looks like most of these discussions are rather old. I am fairly computer literate and don't particularly care which OS I use. Which one does Hauptwerk and the typical associated hardware (touchscreens, audio interfaces, etc) tend to work better on?
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organtechnology

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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostThu Jan 29, 2015 9:46 pm

OSX
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
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engrssc

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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 1:14 am

Agree with Thomas. :) But I think you'll hear from quite a few PC users in favor of Win. :o

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 3:19 am

IMHO the decision for a certain OS, which always determines the hardware compatible and available, is purely a question of taste, if not faith and the willingness to spend money for your religion.

Both systems have their individual pros and cons.

I refuse to open a religious war on that, being very sure, that we won't hear any audio-difference in Hauptwerk's heaven.

amun :wink: , writing this under LINUX
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 5:12 am

This is as an excerpt from our 'technical info' document (which isn't actually on the website at the moment, since it's in the process of being updated):

Hauptwerk is available for both Macs and PCs. Macs usually work and perform very well for ‘pro-audio/MIDI’ (low-latency, real-time, CPU-intensive) applications such as Hauptwerk ‘out of the box’, whereas Windows/PCs might (or might not) require some technical expertise and tweaking in order to achieve and maintain that. If you don’t have much technical computer experience or inclination then we recommend either buying a Mac or buying a PC from a company that builds, maintains and supports them specifically for Hauptwerk (or for general ‘pro-audio/MIDI’) purposes. In a PC the ability to achieve reliable (glitch-free) real-time, low-latency audio, high polyphony, and reliable MIDI performance, depends heavily on the specific combination of hardware components and drivers within the PC (and especially the audio/MIDI interface hardware/drivers), whereas Mac OS X has high-performance professional-grade audio and MIDI drivers built in, so there's much less dependence on hardware or driver quality on OS X. Also Macs, including OS X, are designed and tested specifically for those purposes as complete units by their manufacturer, whereas generic off-the-shelf PCs usually aren’t. On PCs the hardware, operating system and drivers are usually manufactured by different companies. However, PC hardware is often cheaper and there is more choice.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 9:21 am

Thanks all, that is very helpful. I was worried that Hauptwerk was designed for one OS and "ported" to the other, which often means that the "port" version is never quite as good/stable, but it sounds like that doesn't need to be a concern.

Any hints on how to get to 64GB in a Mac without spending $4000 on a Mac Pro?
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 10:25 am

162_Ranks wrote: Which one does Hauptwerk and the typical associated hardware (touchscreens, audio interfaces, etc) tend to work better on?


The answer is still OSX.

Windows can be made to work and it is not very difficult. 88% of the systems I have built are Windows based. If the question had included cost, I would of course have said Windows is better. The main thing I see is the Apple core audio is superior to the HD Audio in the Windows world in that it is ASIO compatible and PCs need an ASIO sound card to adapt.

However I still remain OS neutral biased only by what the customer wants.

Thomas
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 11:39 am

I use both a PC, and a MacBook Pro. I like both, and have little trouble. Personally, after loading 4.1, I have had no glitches on the PC. Whatever they did seems to have made the program more stable, at least on my machine.
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 2:38 pm

Again agree with Thomas. I have Hauptwerk organs running on both platforms. While each have had no serious setup problems, just some learning curves to get used to H/W, etc, I originally had a sound card issue with the PC. Nothing at all with the Mac. I did have a chance to A-B test both instruments a while back with some friends as listeners. Without knowing which system they were listening to, 5 of the 6 picked the Mac. I should mention I set it up to be able to switch the audio outputs from each system (OSX and Windows 7) into the same power amps and same speakers which eliminated any differences in that regard. The organist who played, used the same music and the same registration on each instrument and he did not know either which system he was playing. He, too, agreed with the majority. So that would make it 6 to 1 in favor of the MAC.

This maybe wasn't a totally scientific survey as we didn't actually take any measurements, just ears which I felt were the final measuring tool that most of us have. So, for what it is worth. 8)

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 2:43 pm

162_Ranks wrote:Thanks all, that is very helpful. I was worried that Hauptwerk was designed for one OS and "ported" to the other, which often means that the "port" version is never quite as good/stable, but it sounds like that doesn't need to be a concern.

Any hints on how to get to 64GB in a Mac without spending $4000 on a Mac Pro?


If you can find a second hand mac pro 2009, 2010 or mid 2012 with two processors, you can put 96Gb of ram in them at a reasonable price. That said, with that amount of ram, and the price of the second hand mac pro, you won't be that far of $4000 I guess.

phjo
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostSat Jan 31, 2015 5:52 am

engrssc wrote:I originally had a sound card issue with the PC. Nothing at all with the Mac. I did have a chance to A-B test both instruments a while back with some friends as listeners. Without knowing which system they were listening to, 5 of the 6 picked the Mac. I should mention I set it up to be able to switch the audio outputs from each system (OSX and Windows 7) into the same power amps and same speakers which eliminated any differences in that regard. The organist who played, used the same music and the same registration on each instrument and he did not know either which system he was playing. He, too, agreed with the majority. So that would make it 6 to 1 in favor of the MAC.


Hello Ed,

If their specifications (CPU, amount of RAM, etc.) are approximately the same, there shouldn't in theory be any difference in audio quality between a Mac and a PC if they're both using the same, high-quality audio interface, with high-quality drivers (e.g. an RME interface) and if the PC is working reliably for MIDI and glitch-free audio. Hauptwerk's audio engine is the same on both platforms.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostSat Jan 31, 2015 6:10 am

162_Ranks wrote:Any hints on how to get to 64GB in a Mac without spending $4000 on a Mac Pro?


Unfortunately, the Mac Pro is the only model that can accept more than 32 GB.

On the subject of buying second-hand models, I'd caution that Macs more than 3-4 years old may well not be able to run new versions of OS X, so their useful/working lifespans might be fairly limited. Also we can only keep supporting old versions of OS X for a certain period, once Apple and other driver/software makers drop support for them.

Note that the 16 GB RAM boards are readily available for the new Mac Pro (which takes four 16 GB boards) from third-party suppliers, such as OWC in the U.S. ( http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/Mac-Pro-Memory#1866-memory ) and Kingston in the U.K. ( http://www.kingston.com/en/memory/search?DeviceType=1&Mfr=APP&Line=Mac%20Pro&Model=86185 ). That might help to make a new Mac Pro slightly more affordable.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostMon Feb 02, 2015 12:52 am

I have used both Mac and PC platforms, professionally, for the last 25 years so I hope I can give a fairly objective view of both? In terms of performance, given similar processors, there is nothing to choose between either of them in my opinion however in terms of reliability, I have always found Macs to be better. The Mac OS is much better and more stable.
Once you learn the differences between Mac and PC, which is not difficult, subsequent upgrades do not involve masses of re-learning!! Microsoft have been very good at "improving" their OS over the years - with varying degrees of success ( or failure in some cases) and usually (in my opinion) the "improvements" are debatable and usually involve a frustrating period of re- learning.
Less issues with viruses on Mac - the idiots tend to steer clear of trying to infect Macs.
Again in my experience, Macs always load their OS much faster.
For Hauptwerk, with a Mac the installed sound card is more than good enough and an upgrade is only required when you move to a multi channel set up.
Yes a Mac will always cost more than an equivalent PC. Here in the UK that can be double, or more, the price of a PC but based on 25 years of commercial use of both platforms, I am more than happy to pay the extra cost.
I use a PC for everyday work only because they are cheap and easy to replace, however for Hauptwerk where I want quality and reliability, I only consider a Mac. I am the same with iPads and iPhones - I will not consider anything else, despite there being plenty of cheaper options.
Of course there are plenty of PC users who will tell you that their systems are perfect and reliable, but what are they judging that against? How many of those people have long term experience of both systems.
I am playing devils advocate here of course as the whole issue is so subjective.
Everyone has their view on which is the best system, this is simply mine!
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostMon Feb 02, 2015 2:43 am

I agree with Neil's observations. I only go back to Win97 on a PC and as was said, there were some good operating systems and some not good from Microsoft. OTOH, with my first Apple IIe, where you had to load the OS each time by means of a floppy disc, it still works - in it's quite humble way. The green screen and the printer as well, except no one sells ink for the printer for the last 30 or so years.

A side note, my daughter, on her own, while in second grade long before kids knew much if anything about computers, learned how to operate the Apple IIe - without a manual. She, during the middle of the night, quietly slipped downstairs and started "making it work". She goofed one time while watching me work with it and told me there was a better way to do something that I hadn't thought of. Her "cover" had been compromised. :wink:

BTW, when Radio Shack first had a limited amount of computers to sell, their marketing people "convinced" management on the idea that if the public didn't buy these computers, they would just use them in their own stores to help with inventory control. Little did they know of the future outcome of that "plan". (That's way back when Radio Shack had some real good stuff to sell. It was a haven for ham operators and even broadcasters).

I bought many PC's over time and none of the old ones are around because for one reason or another, they stopped working and were not repairable. Then there's the incompatibility of 3rd party PC cards and components that has been a pain (you know where), :shock:

I still run both platforms for various tasks and various reasons, but for Hauptwerk, there's (for me) only one choice which is of course a Mac. "You gets what you pays for" to quote one of my old college profs. I wish the same philosophy would exist for cars. :o

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Mac vs. Win (probably a rehash - latest wisdom requested

PostMon Feb 02, 2015 9:23 am

The only difference is in the software. Spending equivalent amounts of money on the windows pc as you would on a mac pc, will give you hardware that is equally powerful, stable, and well built. There is business class pc hardware available which continues to run 24/7 for years on end. As for the third party peripherals, keep in mind that many of the low-end junk that is available for the PC doesn't even work on the mac; spend equal amounts of money on the hardware, on both systems, and they are equivalent.

Apple doesn't build computer hardware, beyond the motherboard; there are business class PC motherboards available which can easily exceed the quality of the apple stuff. After that, both apple and pc hardware is made in china / taiwan / s korea by the same companies. Intel / Amd make the cpu's, samsung + kingston + crucial make memory, western digital + seagate + fujitsu + samsung make harddrives etc etc. Apple, Dell, HP, Acer, they all get these components from the same places.

What windows pc hardware gives you, is choice / flexibility, at the cost of varying levels of price, performance and stability. With apple, you don't get a choice. One might prefer one or the other.

As for the software: the apple is tuned better, out of the box, for hauptwerk type usage (audio / video work). If you prefer the familiarity of windows, my advice would be windows 7 pro, skip windows 8 (at all costs) if you can. Either system would benefit from being setup and configured initialy, then removed from the internet and used only as a dedicated hauptwerk controller; don't use them for other purposes, as that will remove some of the stability of the system. Turn them on, play hauptwerk, turn them off.
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