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Hauptwerk on Linux

Buying or building computers for Hauptwerk, recommendations, troubleshooting computer hardware issues.

Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby OrganoPleno » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:29 pm

Frank-Evans wrote:A turnkey system using a Windows computer should not be connected to the internet, have games on it, have the ability for the user to install games, be subject to upgrades by the user, etc. etc. etc….
If it is more than a hobby then the computer should be dedicated to the organ and not used for other tasks. If it works when it is initially set up and works correctly, what need is there to upgrade either Hauptwerk or Windows…. If the audio system works.. you don’t need to upgrade the drivers. If it’s not on the web there is no need for security patches, antivirus protection and all the rest of the stuff used on the home machine. Uninstall ALL un-needed software items and Windows runs fine until somebody messes with it.

This is my approach as well. First system ran perfectly on Win7Pro for nearly seven years, till I needed more RAM. New system on Win7Pro running perfectly since last October. Better sound with a better sound card. Everything else about the same. Stable is good.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby johnh » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:51 pm

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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby organtechnology » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:19 pm

OrganoPleno wrote:
Frank-Evans wrote:A turnkey system using a Windows computer should not be connected to the internet, have games on it, have the ability for the user to install games, be subject to upgrades by the user, etc. etc. etc….
If it is more than a hobby then the computer should be dedicated to the organ and not used for other tasks. If it works when it is initially set up and works correctly, what need is there to upgrade either Hauptwerk or Windows…. If the audio system works.. you don’t need to upgrade the drivers. If it’s not on the web there is no need for security patches, antivirus protection and all the rest of the stuff used on the home machine. Uninstall ALL un-needed software items and Windows runs fine until somebody messes with it.

This is my approach as well. First system ran perfectly on Win7Pro for nearly seven years, till I needed more RAM. New system on Win7Pro running perfectly since last October. Better sound with a better sound card. Everything else about the same. Stable is good.


Even though it is a dedicated Hauptwerk computer and maybe even the organ is headless, it still needs a remote access capability for technical people to do remote service, configs and trouble shooting of the hardware, loading new organs, adjusting the HW environment etc.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby jkinkennon » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:52 am

johnh wrote:Who offers HW integrated with Windows Embedded?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/windows-embedded-standard-7.aspx


Great question. This is exactly what I had in mind though I had never researched the topic. If it's affordable I might give it a try. I was reminded of my old Sun Solaris machines that would run for years at a time without any attention or rebooting.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby OrganoPleno » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:11 pm

organtechnology wrote:Even though it is a dedicated Hauptwerk computer and maybe even the organ is headless, it still needs a remote access capability for technical people to do remote service, configs and trouble shooting of the hardware, loading new organs, adjusting the HW environment etc.


Whether I need it or not, I've never had any "remote access capability", nor have I ever missed it. In fact, I would NEVER ALLOW anybody to remotely access any computer of mine, regardless. Let the tech staff tell me what to do, and I can do it (in my own fashion, such as I choose).

Fortunately, I can be my own "technical people". Loading a new organ and adjusting Hauptwerk parameters has never been a problem.

Of course, if I were responsible for somebody ELSE's installation, I would require good access rights... one way or another.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby Frank-Evans » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:57 pm

Even though it is a dedicated Hauptwerk computer and maybe even the organ is headless, it still needs a remote access capability for technical people to do remote service, configs and trouble shooting of the hardware, loading new organs, adjusting the HW environment etc.


If I had paid 50 - 100 large for a Organ (not a hobby system) and it needed service I would expect, no, require the service person come to my location... to service it, not remotely. If there is a hardware failure it takes hands on to fix... if it's software I would expect the service person to service it and demo it as well to insure it's working...
Did that for many years... How many pipe organ technicians service over the internet????... That whole concept is wonderful for computers but organs fall into an entirely different class.....
Service to the customer is the real name of the game......
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby organtechnology » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:26 pm

Frank-Evans wrote:
Even though it is a dedicated Hauptwerk computer and maybe even the organ is headless, it still needs a remote access capability for technical people to do remote service, configs and trouble shooting of the hardware, loading new organs, adjusting the HW environment etc.


If I had paid 50 - 100 large for a Organ (not a hobby system) and it needed service I would expect, no, require the service person come to my location... to service it, not remotely. If there is a hardware failure it takes hands on to fix... if it's software I would expect the service person to service it and demo it as well to insure it's working...
Did that for many years... How many pipe organ technicians service over the internet????... That whole concept is wonderful for computers but organs fall into an entirely different class.....
Service to the customer is the real name of the game......


I think you are missing the point of a Hauptwerk organ entirely. It is very helpful to be able to sit beside the organist on the bench virtually, without the expenses of travel. I do not sell or repair pipe organs.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby organtechnology » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:59 pm

jkinkennon wrote:
johnh wrote:Who offers HW integrated with Windows Embedded?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/windows-embedded-standard-7.aspx


Great question. This is exactly what I had in mind though I had never researched the topic. If it's affordable I might give it a try. I was reminded of my old Sun Solaris machines that would run for years at a time without any attention or rebooting.


Hi John,
It is worth looking into for sure. So far all I have found is pretty sketchy and it appears the demo is in 13 or 14 480MB parts. Not sure how many are needed at minimum. Please include me in your deliberations.

Thomas
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby sonar11 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:16 pm

There is nothing really wrong with remotely connecting to computers. This can be done securely on linux using passwordless "public/private key" encryption via ssh-server and (eg) x2goclient + x2goserver. I administer several public facing servers like this, I have never had access to the physical hardware since they are half a continent away. One is cloud based, just a virtual machine (so you don't even have physical hardware anymore; you just rent resources). These are all public servers, in that users over the internet are connecting to them for several different services. They have never yet been compromised; setup a firewall, turn off all unneeded services, install "fail2ban" which can automatically block IP's via the firewall if there are 2 many failed attempts to connect etc etc.

I'm assuming windows server also has somewhat secure options that way. Last time I used a windows server it was kind of sketchy, just the built-in "remote desktop client" using a username + password but I have to believe there are more secure options out there (possibly even RDP itself with different options; been a while since I looked into that). For windows desktops I mainly use "supremo" which is a very small/lightweight remote client. But all data goes through supremo servers, so a bit of a security risk.

I've helped out a number of people with their HW system, all done remotely. I'd go bonkers having to drive out all the time for a 10 minute tweak or sample installation etc.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby jkinkennon » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:53 am

Hauptwerk on Linux for the larger applications would require a selection of 24+ channel audio interfaces which could be easily implemented, or at least one or two models. I did a quick check for units larger than 4in/4out and found a few along with all kinds of caveats like DSP not functional, or USB1.1 only. I haven't tried to use Linux for audio in a couple of years, so perhaps I'm missing some good hardware possibilities. Any thoughts?

On the support subject it is important to remember that all but our mutual, charitable forum support gets paid for by our HW purchases and in a few cases by independent paid HW consultants. We get a phenomenal level of support for the low HW price, and complicated configurations or more in person service is invariably going to be paid for somewhere, somehow. More than likely we would pay higher upgrade costs or find ourselves looking at a HW subscription service or tiered levels of support.

I spent yesterday working with my Raspberry Pi 3 with the 7" display. By the end of the day the vi editing commands were reawakened in the little grey cells and I had used most of the command line stuff I could remember and lot that I had forgotten. This just to get basic networking, remote access, and a few users configured. I have a graphical interface, either on the 7" display or via HDMI, but most of the time basic applications require root access to config files. I just don't see how Linux enthusiasts find the system to be ready for the casual user.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby sonar11 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:57 am

You can't judge all of linux by your experience on a raspberry pi; that is a specific system for enthusiasts who need/want to tweak everything themselves. Download something sane and useful like ubuntu or fedora or open suse. I've never spent more time on networking (on my usual desktop system) than plugging in the cable. That's literally it, just plug in the cable. Same with display, most linux distros have graphical utilities or control panel to allow you to choose which output (dvi / vga / hdmi etc) you want to display on, whether to mirror it, or whether to extend your desktop across multiple outputs; this is no different than windows.

Remote access is done via ssh; use your package manager to install ssh server and it's done, you can login using your login + password.

I'm the tech support in my family; they come to me to install a printer or whatever. Guess what, whether they're running linux or windows, they can't do it on either OS, they need me to do it. So at that point I've converted half of them already to use linux because it cuts down my workload. Instead of them dropping their computer off whenever it inevitably goes down the tube of bad updates or virus's or something else taking out their system, there computer now runs flawlessly for every 2 years until I install the next release of ubuntu LTS for them. The ones who are still running windows are the ones who had more years of experience on a computer and are "set in their ways"; which is fine, if you've memorized your way around a computer then by all means continue to use that setup.

Do you know what it takes to install my networked samsung laser printer in windows? It takes a 120 meg driver, including a bunch of other utilities and software/bloatware that I'll never use, and about 20 minutes of time. Same printer takes literally 10 seconds to configure on ubuntu... open the printer control panel, click "add"; wait for a few seconds for the computer to scan usb and network, and boom the printer appears in the list. Click Next, give it a name if you want, done.

Actually using the system is no harder or worse. You have a desktop with icons, a start menu, and familiar programs like firefox, libre office, vlc etc. This stuff isn't rocket science.

Getting back to support ... again this is a bit of a red herring. We're just asking for a port. There is nothing wrong with HW saying "if you want to call/email us for help, you need to run windows or macosx". The people who are asking for a linux port are more than capable of troubleshooting a HW setup (unless there is a specific bug which is only showing up in the linux port).

I get that you don't like linux, or you think it's a bad OS or windows is better or whatever. You're entitled to your opinion based on your experience. As long as the windows port is still available for you guys, then I really don't see what the problem is.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby jkinkennon » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:01 pm

No, I like Linux a lot. I'm just pointing out the support problems which are obvious to so many of us. My experience is hardly limited to the Raspberry Pi. I think I have pointed out that I am currently running an Ubuntu server on Mac Pro hardware, have run Ubuntu and Suse desktops off and on, supported Sun Solaris installations, and was a Unix Programmer at my last day job, but that was years ago.

Did anyone find those audio interfaces for Linux with multiple outputs?

I'd also point out that one of the really nice things about the Mac is that the operating system has some nice unix roots under the covers.
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Re: Hauptwerk on Linux

Postby sonar11 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:48 pm

jkinkennon wrote: I'm just pointing out the support problems which are obvious to so many of us.


No, your pointing out your own opinion of what you think might happen. :) My opinion is that Linux users/developers are generally advanced users, and are very familiar with computers, troubleshooting, and software in general. I'm willing to bet that any user who can install and configure linux, will require no "linux specific" support from MDA (unless there is a bug in the HW software - and I've yet to run across a bug in this software).

As far as driver support goes, I mentioned a while back that this is the real "problem" with linux and HW, though it's not insurmountable. It just requires careful research before purchasing an interface.

A good start might be this page:
http://ffado.org/?q=devicesupport/list

though that is only firewire devices. Other usb devices and pciX devices are supported as well. It's also possible to create a virtual soundcard using multiple physical devices (so you can construct 8 channels from four 2 channel usb soundcards, for example). It's not as simple to do this as it is on mac (using their gui) but it is definitely supported by dropping down to a terminal and editing config files.

I'm going to bow out of this thread at this point. The last thread on this topic got locked (due partly to my comments on all of this) and I don't want to upset anyone any further.
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