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Time Loading large Organs

Buying or building computers for Hauptwerk, recommendations, troubleshooting computer hardware issues.

Time Loading large Organs

Postby biogon » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:28 pm

I recently installed the basic version of Hauptwerk and had to purchase an external MOTU 828mkIII sound module to improve polyphony and latency. I am testing demo versions of organs from all instrument providers. Before upgrading to the advanced version and expanding the memory of the PC, I´d like to know how much time it would take to load a large 30 GB Organ like Caen, if loading the trial version with about 3,5GB it takes about 5 minutes in 20bits. I am working with an HD SATAIII at 7200rpm because I couldn´t fit as many organs that I am testing in the 250GB SSD of the W7 system. The RAM is 8GB DDR3 1866MHz in dual channel with cpu AMD8320e with 8 cores.
Obviously I'm not interested in waiting more than 15 minutes to load one of these organs. Does anyone have experience loading these large organs?
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby telemanr » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:39 pm

Is the 5 min. time each time you load that organ or only the first time (which is always longer)?

An SSD is the only way to get truly speedy loading.
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby ludu » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:30 pm

telemanr wrote:An SSD is the only way to get truly speedy loading.

There is another way to combine with the first one mentioned: to load all the ranks without compression (if you have memory enough). It also increases the speed.
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby murph » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:47 pm

Ignore. just re-read post.
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby sesquialtera » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:05 am

Hello biogon,
I´d like to know how much time it would take to load a large 30 GB Organ like Caen, if loading the trial version with about 3,5GB it takes about 5 minutes in 20bits.

The first load takes a lot of time, and even more if the sampleset is crypted, and if you select the lossless compression.
It can take nearly an hour for a big organ as Caen extended ... (I don't have SSD drive) .
But after this, loading organ again is far faster :
I've just load my Caen sampleset V2, looking at the clock : it takes 3'15 minutes to load the full sampleset (front and rear samples in stereo 24 bits, with lossless compression). I've got 4x 8gigsDDR3 RAM, Windows 7, intel i5 CPU.
Hope it helps...
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby mdyde » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:00 am

Hello biogon,

Welcome to the forum.

[Topic moved here, since it's large dependent upon the computer hardware.]

These are some previous topics that cover the loading speeds that people achieve with different specifications of computer hardware, where the bottlenecks are likely to be, and how to reduce them:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10159
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10770
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11350
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14815
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14683
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14556#p108156
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14624
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11630
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15941&p=119693#p119617

As others have replied, the first time you load an organ (and the first time after changing and rank memory options or audio routing settings) the organ will load from its raw sample files, which will be slow. However, subsequently it will load from a cached version of the organ, for which loading speeds are likely to be between 50 MB/s and 1 GB/s, depending on the speed of your SSD/hard-drive(s), the speed of your CPU and number of cores that it has, and whether the virtual ranks options are set to load compressed or uncompressed.

With a basic 7200 RPM hard-drive you might get around 60-130 MB/s, whereas with a very modern PCI-e SSD, very fast modern Intel i7/i9 CPU with at least four cores, and loading uncompressed, you should potentially be able to reach 700-1000 MB/s. With a mid-range CPU and a basic SATA SSD you're more likely to get loading speeds in the region of 170-250 MB/s.

You can see the loading speed that your PC achieves by using 'Help | View activity log' after loading the organ, then looking at its 'Sample loader: approx. avg. overall data read rate' figure (if it loaded from cache).

The size of the sample set cache file will be roughly equal to the amount of RAM used by the sample set when loading compressed (since the cache file is always compressed, even if you load the ranks uncompressed). Hence if you have a PC (with 32+ GB of RAM), and you loaded a sample set that used 24 GB of RAM uncompressed, and your PC was extremely fast and could achieve loading speeds of 1 GB/s then the sample set should take at most 24 seconds to load (probably closer to 15 seconds, since the cache would be compressed).

If you select the 'Custom' option in Hauptwerk's installer you could choose to put Hauptwerk's 'Internal working data' (which are the speed-critical sample set cache files) and the 'User data' (speed-critical settings files) on your SSD, whilst keeping the 'Sample sets and components' (mainly not speed-critical, but very large, raw sample set files) on your 7200 RPM hard-drive. The 'Installation: background information: Planning installation locations' section in the main Hauptwerk user guide (on the Help menu in Hauptwerk; pages 18-19 in the current v4.2.1 version) covers that in more depth. You could just re-run the installer and it should move your existing installation accordingly. (It's always a good idea to use 'File | Backup ...' first, just in case anything goes wrong when moving the data.)
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby biogon » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:00 pm

telemanr wrote:Is the 5 min. time each time you load that organ or only the first time (which is always longer)?

An SSD is the only way to get truly speedy loading.


Thanks telemar.
I have done with the St. Anne Organ.
HW memory free before loading: 6.2 GB (total 8GB in W7 64b)
HW memory free after loading: 5.2 GB
First St. Anne load time full 24b: 91"
Second St. Anne load time: 7"
After PC reboot time: 9"

The same with Rotterdam Laurenskerk trial 20b front, 16b rear, no noises, 6GB, after reboot: 56"

Using the same PC with expanded RAM to 32GB and the 7200rpm HD, can I hope: 5x56= 4,6 minutes loading a large Organ of 30GB?
Kind regards
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby biogon » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:18 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello biogon,

Welcome to the forum.

[Topic moved here, since it's large dependent upon the computer hardware.]

These are some previous topics that cover the loading speeds that people achieve with different specifications of computer hardware, where the bottlenecks are likely to be, and how to reduce them:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10159
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10770
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11350
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14815
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14683
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14556#p108156
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14624
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11630
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15941&p=119693#p119617

As others have replied, the first time you load an organ (and the first time after changing and rank memory options or audio routing settings) the organ will load from its raw sample files, which will be slow. However, subsequently it will load from a cached version of the organ, for which loading speeds are likely to be between 50 MB/s and 1 GB/s, depending on the speed of your SSD/hard-drive(s), the speed of your CPU and number of cores that it has, and whether the virtual ranks options are set to load compressed or uncompressed.

With a basic 7200 RPM hard-drive you might get around 60-130 MB/s, whereas with a very modern PCI-e SSD, very fast modern Intel i7/i9 CPU with at least four cores, and loading uncompressed, you should potentially be able to reach 700-1000 MB/s. With a mid-range CPU and a basic SATA SSD you're more likely to get loading speeds in the region of 170-250 MB/s.

You can see the loading speed that your PC achieves by using 'Help | View activity log' after loading the organ, then looking at its 'Sample loader: approx. avg. overall data read rate' figure (if it loaded from cache).

The size of the sample set cache file will be roughly equal to the amount of RAM used by the sample set when loading compressed (since the cache file is always compressed, even if you load the ranks uncompressed). Hence if you have a PC (with 32+ GB of RAM), and you loaded a sample set that used 24 GB of RAM uncompressed, and your PC was extremely fast and could achieve loading speeds of 1 GB/s then the sample set should take at most 24 seconds to load (probably closer to 15 seconds, since the cache would be compressed).

If you select the 'Custom' option in Hauptwerk's installer you could choose to put Hauptwerk's 'Internal working data' (which are the speed-critical sample set cache files) and the 'User data' (speed-critical settings files) on your SSD, whilst keeping the 'Sample sets and components' (mainly not speed-critical, but very large, raw sample set files) on your 7200 RPM hard-drive. The 'Installation: background information: Planning installation locations' section in the main Hauptwerk user guide (on the Help menu in Hauptwerk; pages 18-19 in the current v4.2.1 version) covers that in more depth. You could just re-run the installer and it should move your existing installation accordingly. (It's always a good idea to use 'File | Backup ...' first, just in case anything goes wrong when moving the data.)



Thanks, I have been testing with other sample sets like Rotterdam trial 6GB and the speed is about 115 MB/s. When I had found my "perfect" Organ I´ll modify the cache memory to the SSD.
I have tested a lot of trial Organs, and the Rotterdam Laurenskerk is the best for now. It´s a difficult decision...
Best regards.
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby jerrynazard » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:31 pm

Biogon,

The Rotterdam main set is one of my favorites. I have both front and rear loaded in 24bit uncompressed, taking up 77.5GB ram. The organ loads in 1.53". If you like the demo set, you will love the entire instrument.

Best!

-Jerry
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Re: Time Loading large Organs

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:37 am

Edit: I've added uncompressed load times. It definitely takes a lot more memory, but loads much faster.

I only have the Rotterdam demo set and love it. Takes compressed 26 seconds, uncompressed 17 seconds to load, compressed 14.3 GB, 550 MB/s load speed, uncompressed 24.3 GB, 1510 MB/s load speed, 24 bit . I soon hope to purchase the full surround set.

I also have the full Zwolle surround set. Takes compressed 48 seconds, uncompressed 30 seconds to load, compressed 27 GB. 563 MB/s load speed, uncompressed 42.4 GB, 1240 MB/s load speed, 24 bit.

I see a big benefit loading uncompressed, as long as you have the memory to cover it. I question the MB/s load speed #, but that's what they calculate out to. The greater memory usage is easily offset by the multiple times faster loading speed.

Eric
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