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HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

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gerrit

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostThu Nov 26, 2009 7:55 am

mdyde wrote:Hauptwerk doesn't allow its virtual consoles to be rotated or resized dynamically, or allow the layout of the displays to be customised easily (although we do have that logged as an enhancement request for the longer-term).


With the rapidly changing market for touchscreens, maybe resizing should get a bit more priority? For example, you could put 2 Hauptwerk windows side by side on one widescreen if you could make both windows a little bit narrower.

Rotating is less necessary, because most graphics cards can handle that by default.
Gerrit Veldman

Free sheet music available at my website.
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James

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostThu Nov 26, 2009 8:08 am

Will the HP L2105 work with a Mac OS? I could not find anything that says it can. It seems to be designed for the new Windows 7.
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toplayer2

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostThu Nov 26, 2009 12:28 pm

James wrote:Will the HP L2105 work with a Mac OS? I could not find anything that says it can. It seems to be designed for the new Windows 7.

James,

The monitor would work, but sorry to say that there do not appear to be any Mac drivers for the touch function. Win XP through Win7 are all supported.

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Organorak

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostThu Nov 26, 2009 4:09 pm

Many thanks to Martin and others who have so kindly responded to me already. I wasn't aware that there was other software available that could act as a "front end" to Hauptwerk and a bit of Googling tonight on "j-organ" didn't get me very far. (I only managed to dig up a few forum posts from people wanting to know how to do just that but I didn't find anthing that was actually useful, and I spotted a few posts suggesting that it should be neither done nor discussed about). Being new to this forum I don't want to upset etiquette by inadvertently asking about another system here if it's considered a competitor.

Perhaps by the time I come to invest in a system (I'm looking at probably another six months from now) either resizing or an simpler CODM will have become a reality? Given that since a portrait rotated 1920x1080 monitor is pretty close to both the size and shape of a typical stop jamb on either side of a drawstop organ of three or four manuals, and knowing the instruments that could be controlled by such an arrangement (notably Salisbury) it might still be worth my waiting for resizable or more easily customisable stopjambs. In any case I expect before long such monitors will be the norm for desktops running Win7. Otherwise it's going to be back to the drawing board and I shall have to totally rethink the control system. The cost and electrical complexity of movable drawstops is a bit of a non-starter though, and I loath stoptabs despite currently owning a digital electronic organ which has them.
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mdyde

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostThu Nov 26, 2009 4:32 pm

Thanks - no problem.

Whilst here probably isn't really the place to discuss detailed j-Organ issues (try j-Organ's own discussion list), we certainly have no problem at all with j-Organ itself in principle (it's an original work, and it's very different to Hauptwerk anyway, in that it doesn't have any sound generation ability of its own, for example - it's essentially a user-definable organ-like front-end/relay for other voice generation hardware/software).

Perhaps by the time I come to invest in a system (I'm looking at probably another six months from now) either resizing or an simpler CODM will have become a reality?


Those things would both be large enhancements (especially a GUI organ-design tool), and need to be longer-term than six months, I'm afraid. Our release and enhancement schedule is already very full for the next 12 months - sorry!

This post gives an outline of the major releases/enhancements we have planned over that period:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5573
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Nov 29, 2009 5:13 am

There is software that acts as an interface between a touchscreen to MIDI to Hauptwerk? Nothing surprises me, but that would be so cool. Let me see if I've understood right. I've never seen the console at Salisbury Cathedral, but would imagine it's pretty stunning, here's a possible mock-up that I've put together just using Photoshop, sized to fit a portrait orientation monitor sized 1080x1920, with apologies to anyone who knows the instrument for the deliberate inaccuracies (why let reality get in the way of fantasy?):

Image
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.p ... 348cc8.jpg

At this stage I'm probably not looking at going down the CODM, I'm just trying to find a twin-touch screen alternative to the complexity and expense of drawstops for the purpose of selecting stops. The output signal from the touchscreens will presumably have to be MIDI-interpretable, just as real drawstops would be in a premium Hauptwerk setup. Does j-organ do all this already, I found their help files a bit hard to fathom. If not, then the question is, what software (preferably simple to use and affordable :D ) would
(1) allow me to draw an interactive GUI such as the one in the image, allowing stops to change brightness or colour when selected;
(2) allow the area of the screen that is covered by each stop to be "selectable" to a touch screen so that I can selected the stops by touching them;
(3) convert the signal that is generated by touching the part of the screen over a stophead into a MIDI signal that is recognisable to Hauptwerk as having come from that stop.

I'm guessing that these are the three steps I need if I am going to use non-standard (at least, not yet standard) monitor sizes or orientations, and that it's absolutely equivalent to sample set providers offering from the start multiple monitor and screensize configuration options. Once again, the setup I'm interested in is three widescreen monitors, that's to say two portrait-oriented touch sensitive monitors in place of left and right stop jambs, and a central (landscape) monitor which could be used for Hauptwerk setup, adjustments and as a digital music stand. No immediate hurry as I won't be getting Hauptwerk until Salisbury comes out, but I figured that I should start planning well in advance!

Quick edit: I just came across the Acer T230H, a 23 inch touchscreen 1920x1080 monitor that's just come out, UK cost around £300. Definately the way forward...
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mdyde

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Nov 29, 2009 7:08 am

At this stage I'm probably not looking at going down the CODM, I'm just trying to find a twin-touch screen alternative to the complexity and expense of drawstops for the purpose of selecting stops. The output signal from the touchscreens will presumably have to be MIDI-interpretable, just as real drawstops would be in a premium Hauptwerk setup. Does j-organ do all this already, I found their help files a bit hard to fathom. If not, then the question is, what software (preferably simple to use and affordable :D ) would
(1) allow me to draw an interactive GUI such as the one in the image, allowing stops to change brightness or colour when selected;
(2) allow the area of the screen that is covered by each stop to be "selectable" to a touch screen so that I can selected the stops by touching them;
(3) convert the signal that is generated by touching the part of the screen over a stophead into a MIDI signal that is recognisable to Hauptwerk as having come from that stop.


jOrgan is the only software I'm aware of currently that would fit those requirements.

I haven't tried using it myself as user-definable organ GUI for Hauptwerk, but I believe a few Hauptwerk users do so successfully.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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AndrewW

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Nov 29, 2009 12:09 pm

It is possible to adapt existing Hauptwerk Instruments to different display sizes / orientations. There is a related thread at http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5467. However, if my understanding is correct the use of CODM doesn't necessarily result in the same audio quality of a sound set due to the way in which CODM is structured to make generation more straightforward.

Below is a first iteration of the native St Anne's Moseley console displayed on standard 4:3 monitors but mounted in portrait orientation. There is more tweaking to be done to drawstop positions and associated melding into the background console image, but it gives an indication of what can be achieved.

Image
With more information at http://www.flickr.com/photos/42219488@N06/4143411857/

Image
With a little more information at http://www.flickr.com/photos/42219488@N06/4144169866/

Image
With a little more information at http://www.flickr.com/photos/42219488@N06/4143410719/

This gives an indication of what can be achieved. Within the limits of Hauptwerk (I think it is currently up to 1600 pixels horizontally and 1200 pixels vertically rather than the 1920 x 1280 (or 1280 x 1920) of these wide screens), you can generate virtually anything. The resizing of the images is relatively straightforward in a photo-editing program as long as you don't overwrite existing files. However, in the case of the above changes to St Anne's, the editing of an 18000 line XML file (renamed of course!) is rather involved and should not be undertaken by the faint-hearted - it is very easy to do more damage than good, although the load parsing of Hauptwerk is actually very helpful in highlighting errors.

I haven't played with j-organ, but on first sight it looks like a more user-friendly way of achieving the end objective rather than editing native XML files in Hauptwerk.

Best regards
Andrew
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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Nov 29, 2009 3:06 pm

Thanks Andrew very much for the photos, that's exactly what I had in mind, save for larger and wider (taller) monitors, I think you've nicely demonstrated "proof of concept". Amongst the various files I downloaded off the jorgan site was something in ?xml? with many many rows of programspeak that looked like it was there to define the position, font, name and other characteristics of stops, so maybe I will have to bite the bullet and learn to program a little. Having said that I have plenty of experience with large Excel files so could probably manage to come up with an algorithm for editing xml if it comes to it.

Congrats on a really lovely setup, will be very interested to hear how your system and interface progresses with three manual sample sets. May I ask, also for the benefit of other forum users, a couple of questions.

1. How hard was it to take apart and mount the Studiologic keyboards, and do you recommend them (am I right to think they use Fatar keys)? What are you using as keycheeks and pistons?

2. Do you find the restricted viewing angle of TFT monitors means that you have to mount them quite high in relation to your eyes, and do you find that details near the "bottom" of the screen are difficult to read or faded? I notice that you have mounted your screens perhaps a little higher than many stopjambs would be placed.

Kind regards,

OA
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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Nov 29, 2009 3:48 pm

We're in danger of going more than a little "off-topic" here on point 1, but the Studiologic SL-161 is easy to dismantle and the keybed is easy to mount onto a wooden "shelf" (in my case plywood), using the original plastic base to the Studiologic as a template to drill the mounting holes. Suggest you also look at Vidarf's postings here http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5312 to show how it should be done properly. The other pictures on my Flickr page show the barebones construct (endcheeks are straightforward softwood straight from a DIY store).

In terms of point 2, the viewing angle is the difference between PVA and TN technology used in TFTs - a simple Google search explains the techy stuff. The higher mounting position is simply due to only using 17" 4:3 (or perhaps 5:4?) displays in combination with not wishing to "lose" too much visible area due to the keycheeks + maintain some structural rigidity in the bespoke VESA mounts (perhaps bespoke is a little grand - it's too lumps of wood at right angles :lol: ). With widescreen Touchscreens, the option exists to have the bottom edge of the screen a little lower - after all there is a lot more screen size to play with, so losing a small area due to keycheeks would not be so much of an issue.

Just a thought on the cheaper widescreen TouchScreens: they are starting to appear in larger numbers now. For example:
- Dell SX2210T (but no VESA mount)
- Acer T230H
- HP L2105TM
- Iiyama T2250MTS (due early 2010)
They all appear to be based on the same technology from what I can see - so the "multitouch" is limited to two touches at once. On physical drawstops, it is relatively easy to simultaneously draw or push two neighbouring stops at the same time - time will tell whether it is as easy on a Touchscreen (and hence whether Multitouch is actually of any use for Hauptwerk!). Another point to ponder is that I believe that all the above widescreen TouchScreens are TN TFTs, so are not quite so good for rotating to portrait mode - but information is pretty limited at the moment.
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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Nov 29, 2009 4:45 pm

Hello Andrew,

However, if my understanding is correct the use of CODM doesn't necessarily result in the same audio quality of a sound set due to the way in which CODM is structured to make generation more straightforward.


I want to clarify that the audio quality is not any less when using the CODM. Perhaps you are confusing certain features not being available for the CODM with audio quality, however the audio quality of a particular sample set will remain just as good when used within the CODM as it would when used in a full definition format. There are features that the CODM does not offer such as multiple release samples, so perhaps this is what you are referring to? I just wanted to make sure it is clear that the CODM does not reduce any actual audio quality itself, it just does not offer the full range of features available within the full organ definition file format.
Brett Milan
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MILAN DIGITAL AUDIO
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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Nov 29, 2009 5:11 pm

Thanks for clarifying that Brett - I stand corrected :oops: .

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostMon Nov 30, 2009 11:42 am

Following Brett's logic, if I am simply after customising two stopjambs to display on the monitors of my choice, then rather than custom designing my own entire organ, I'm better off doing the resizing with j-organ or similar software since it won't restrict the available features in Hauptwerk (though of course I will be limited by the original pipe organ's limitations in compass and specification unless the sample set has extended these). Lots to mull over and learn about but if that's right then I can already start designing a console and selecting the IT equipment to go with it.

It's funny to see closeups of the St Anne Moseley organ since I am very familiar with that instrument - I live a few minutes walk from it and would pass it every day on the way to work. But on the "real thing" there's a feature not present on the screenshot - a hole for a missing, prepared for stop on the Swell between Lieblich bourdon 16 and rohr flute 8. Never mind, I guess the rest of the digitalised version is pretty realistic!
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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostMon Nov 30, 2009 12:21 pm

Hello,

Following Brett's logic, if I am simply after customising two stopjambs to display on the monitors of my choice, then rather than custom designing my own entire organ, I'm better off doing the resizing with j-organ or similar software since it won't restrict the available features in Hauptwerk (though of course I will be limited by the original pipe organ's limitations in compass and specification unless the sample set has extended these). Lots to mull over and learn about but if that's right then I can already start designing a console and selecting the IT equipment to go with it.


That's correct, this would allow you to retain all of the original organ features rather than having to redo them yourself.

But on the "real thing" there's a feature not present on the screenshot - a hole for a missing, prepared for stop on the Swell between Lieblich bourdon 16 and rohr flute 8. Never mind, I guess the rest of the digitalised version is pretty realistic!

Please see:

http://www.hauptwerk.com/index.php?src=photo

which shows the St. Anne's as it comes with Hauptwerk which does include all of the realism from the original organ. Andrew has devised his own layout by customizing the graphics so that is why you do not see the hole you mentioned. But this is included on the official St. Anne's organ set with Hauptwerk along with many of the other features the original organ contains.
Brett Milan
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toplayer2

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Re: HP L2105tm wide touchscreen $299

PostSun Dec 20, 2009 7:08 pm

A bit of good news. I brought home an Asus quadcore, 8GB PC from BestBuy ($649) and plugged in both HP touchscreens and vois la! the touch function installed automatically and both monitors work properly!!

The Asus has two free PCI slots (getting harder to find) so using two M-Audio 1010LT cards is doable. M_audio also has Win7 64 drivers available now.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Asus+-+Essentio+Desktop+with+Intel%26%23174%3B+Core%26%23153%3B2+Quad+Processor/9541891.p?id=1218121457704&skuId=9541891

The Asus' cpu is the Intel Q8300. Along with 1333 bus and 8 GB RAM (expandable to 16 GB), this machine should be able to handle almost all available Hauptwerk sample libraries.

Joe Hardy
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