Search:
Submit Search


Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby Rimokatolik » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:18 pm

I was reading through 2 exceptional threads:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7379#p52000
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6498#p45476

Again, reminder, I am interested in reproducing original sound in private environment.

Based on information, especially from Martin, HW works the best (or should I say perfectly :-) ) using well done wet sample set and listening on headphones. He was explaining that it is exactly the same result if sound mixes in the air or digitally by HW. So if you listen on headphones there will be no difference if you listen to recording of playing on the real organ, or playing the same stuff in HW using well done wet sample set of the same organ.

Martin also explained there are no IMD (that dr Pykett was describing) using wet sample set, stereo recording on 2 speakers/headphones. But if more speakers are introduced, it seems to me that it must happen, so actually degrading faithful reproduction. Now, I have impression that many discussions about multichannel options for wet sample sets are about taste, not quality or need. Also, Martin was always talking about multichannel for dry sets. HW supports 512 channels, so there must be a reason :-)
Rimokatolik
Member
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby magnaton » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:28 pm

Rimokatolik wrote:I was reading through 2 exceptional threads:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7379#p52000
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6498#p45476

Now, I have impression that many discussions about multichannel options for wet sample sets are about taste, not quality or need.

Yes those are excellent articles. Thanks for posting them to refresh my memory. Yes, "taste" is a factor but so is physics and live examples. In the mid 1990s, I got a chance to speak to a Rodgers rep who was in town to assist the local dealer with a large 4 manual install. They spec'd a set of "Regal"(?) speakers dedicated to the En Chamade. According to the rep, having this design allows for a more convincing State Trumpet sound since the speaker is not blending with any other voices.

Rimokatolik wrote:Again, reminder, I am interested in reproducing original sound in private environment.

And that is the beauty of Hauptwerk's modular design. Try different sound configuration, audition various speakers, try a set of 4 (or more) studio monitors and return them if you prefer just headphones or a pair of tower speakers. I am believer that the ear can become sophisticated pretty fast. After playing various music or organs for just a few days, you'll know if this is the long term direction.

I'm fortunate where I live to have a local company that rents PA, pro audio instruments, recording and studio gear at a VERY reasonable prices. I was able to audition a PreSonus Temblor T10 for a month for just $20! After about a week I decided I wanted something with more 'authority' :lol:

Danny B.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby Romanos » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:01 am

I will say this, I've had a simple stereo setup and a modest multi-channel setup. There are pros and cons. Stereo is simple and takes no room at all (beyond the console). But you are also aware (or at least I was with nice coaxial monitors that were definitely mid-grade, not cheapos) that you are listening to an organ coming out of small speakers close to you. By contrast, my 8 channel (3 stereo pairs +mix down for headphones and sub) can fill my whole house with sound and put a part in my hair. To be clear, I do not mean to imply that it's just about volume (in terms of decibels) but volume (in terms of sheer energy in the air). The multichannel is a much fuller sound, and it's little wonder: there are at least 6 cones moving (plus sub) rather than just 2. Mathematically, the total moving "surface" of the combined speakers is much greater and so it is a much fuller sound even at low volume levels.

I do wonder, if the effect would be reproduced by large hybrid electrostats (like martin logans) due to their bipolar nature and huge surface area (if I ever win the lotto I'll try it and let everyone know lol).

More practically speaking, I think we can take a cue from professional digital organ companies. Even the most modest home/chapel consoles have multi-channel audio for Rodgers/Allen/Viscount etc. built right into the console. My console is at least a 4.1 with speakers firing out the front and others mounted face up shooting up through the keyboards. Before I upgraded to HW, I can assure you I noticed once some of the speakers started to die. The multi-directional sound made all the difference in the world. If these builders, after all their R&D have unanimously come to the conclusion that there is something to multi-channel, I cannot help but find that a compelling argument. They've sunk millions into it. Even small organs in small churches usually have 4-6 channels.
Romanos
Member
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:11 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby Romanos » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:05 am

One other thing worth noting; if I could do over from scratch, I would have gone bipolar from deftech (Marshall & Ogletree's are the prime examples of this tech) and built up a pair at a time. To this day I'm tempted to ditch my current setup for bipolars to get an even broader sound. You do have to have the space for them though.
Romanos
Member
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:11 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby magnaton » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:29 pm

Romanos wrote:One other thing worth noting; if I could do over from scratch, I would have gone bipolar from deftech (Marshall & Ogletree's are the prime examples of this tech) and built up a pair at a time. To this day I'm tempted to ditch my current setup for bipolars to get an even broader sound. You do have to have the space for them though.

I've heard and played a Hauptwerk install that uses 8 Golden Ear Tritons powered by an 8 channel Crown amp. The setup has the speakers directly behind a partial wall that the console is backed up to. Large openings on either side allow you to walk behind it and for sound egress. A built in wall unit with shelves that sits further back (that the speakers are basically aimed at) has large doors that were crafted so when they are open, then can reflect (think ricochet) the sound out to the large living area. Of course you can play the organ with these closet doors shut and still hear the organ just fine, just less direct. Aesthetically this works great as the large room is professionally decorated and all you see is a console. :)

With someone else playing I was able to walk back and hear these GE Tritons up close and they sound clear and work well for Hauptwerk. The owner is very much a fan of pipe organ design by having the sound emanate from a chamber, attic, swell box, etc. indirectly as its an "organ" not a stereo or surround sound system that plays organ music.

Since these are designed for home stereo or home theatre, they didn't sound as flat as studio monitors. I'm still convinced that bi-amped studio monitors (as their designed is intended) provide the most accurate sound reproduction for Hauptwerk. I do read the threads and reviews from the home studio recording world. It seems this accuracy from various brands and designs of studio monitors has the caveat of ear fatigue. Some more than others. They mention mixing tracks on brand X monitors is fine but for musical (listening) enjoyment one might use brand Y. I have 18 channels of active studio monitors and hosted music parties where the organ was played almost non-stop for hours and no one complained about fatigue. And believe me they would!

Here is a brief discussion on Def Tech and the Golden Ear tower speakers.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14914

Danny B.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby magnaton » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:35 pm

Rimokatolik wrote:I was reading through 2 exceptional threads:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7379#p52000
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6498#p45476

Again, reminder, I am interested in reproducing original sound in private environment.

Check out this wonderful home audio design using in wall speakers!
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10333&p=76037

Only Hauptwerk allows you to think outside-the-box such as this!

Danny B.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby sonar11 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:16 pm

magnaton wrote: I'm still convinced that bi-amped studio monitors (as their designed is intended) provide the most accurate sound reproduction for Hauptwerk. I do read the threads and reviews from the home studio recording world. It seems this accuracy from various brands and designs of studio monitors has the caveat of ear fatigue. Some more than others.


I think this is a very interesting topic; because "accurate" is not always equivalent to "most pleasing". Most people buying home theatre systems tend to prefer listening to concave voiced speakers; heavy(ier) on the bass, a dip in the middle, then heavy(ier) again in the treble. Think polk audio, paradigm, all the big brand box store speakers etc seem to be voiced that way, whereas studio monitors are voiced completely flat.

For myself, I put more emphasis on how it handles the treble/bass, and less emphasis on the voicing. So no metal tweeters, my ears are sore after 30 mins on most speakers, I find the easiest to listen to are the AMT/ribbon tweeters due to the airy nature of them. My ears no longer "vibrate" on those high frequencies (2's, mixtures). I know they're not the most accurate (voicing), they are only $300-$400 speakers so they're not going to be perfect, but they still sound best to me and I prefer them (for organ music) far above the (more accurate and detailed) $2000 KEF's in my home system.
sonar11
Member
 
Posts: 661
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:53 pm

Rimokatolik wrote:Martin also explained there are no IMD (that dr Pykett was describing) using wet sample set, stereo recording on 2 speakers/headphones. But if more speakers are introduced, it seems to me that it must happen, so actually degrading faithful reproduction.


Inter-modulation distortion actually is produced by the speakers themselves when two different frequency tones are produced. I don't remember Colin's article off hand, but I think he was talking about a slightly different situation. Using more speaker helps to mitigate IM distortion.

Eric
Eric Sagmuller
Member
 
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:18 pm
Location: Bellefonte, PA USA

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby 1961TC4ME » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:38 pm

Eric Sagmuller wrote:
Using more speaker helps to mitigate IM distortion.

Eric


In addition to just more speakers, careful rank routing selection and speaker positioning also helps to mitigate IM distortion.

Marc
1961TC4ME
Member
 
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:45 pm
Location: Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota

Re: Thoughts on the use of large speaker arrays

Postby scottherbert » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:59 am

Sonar11 I like your thinking. The system has to be pleasing to YOUR ears!

As many different opinions as there are people when it comes to speakers. What really matters is that you like what you hear. I knew a person that was obsessed by "accuracy", and never actually achieved what he wanted. At the time of his death he had over 50 pairs of speakers, and it still wasn't enough. :wink:

~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
scottherbert
Member
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: Southern Colorado, USA

Previous

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest