Speaker System-Subwoofer

My idea for my first speaker system would consist of two speakers and a subwoofer.
My questions are:
1. What speakers
and
2. What subwoofer
should I choose, in order to get very good sound, as well as frequency response (I have the Hereford set, which means that my lowest notes will be the 16 Hz C's on the Double Open Wood and Contra Bombarde)
All of this without exceeding a price limit of, say, 500 Euros.
Thanks in advance.

Don't forget that if you don't mind second hand equipment you will potentially get much higher sound quality for the same budget.

As of today 500 Euro converts to $675.42 in US figures, that's a tight budget for speakers. I'd also suggest looking into used speakers, maybe you might stumble across a good garage sale find. I'd be looking for pair of speakers of either a 2-way or 3-way variety with 8" to 10" drivers and a sub with a 12" driver at a minimum. You won't get everything you want but as long as the speakers are in good shape it ought to sound pretty good. Splurge and grab a second smaller pair of speakers to install as rear speakers and then you really have something and you should get miles and miles of enjoyment.

Marc

As of today 500 Euro converts to $675.42 in US figures, that's a tight budget for speakers. I'd also suggest looking into used speakers, maybe you might stumble across a good garage sale find. I'd be looking for pair of speakers of either a 2-way or 3-way variety with 8" to 10" drivers and a sub with a 12" driver at a minimum. You won't get everything you want but as long as the speakers are in good shape it ought to sound pretty good. Splurge and grab a second smaller pair of speakers to install as rear speakers and then you really have something and you should get miles and miles of enjoyment.

Marc

Should be doable second hand within your budget (don't forget you'll need a hifi-type amplifier too). Cheap PC speakers might suffice for rear until your budget improves, you don't need to spend nearly as much for the rear channels.

Another place to check would be a good local pawn shop or even a consignment shop, many times you will find they have a good selection of speakers and stereo equipment at prices much lower than you'd pay retail.

Marc

One issue is the frequency response......most subwoofers do not go below 32 Hz in theory, but I have read in forums that even such a theoretical frequency response will give a very good 32' output (16-32 Hz)......how realistic is that?

One issue is the frequency response......most subwoofers do not go below 32 Hz in theory, but I have read in forums that even such a theoretical frequency response will give a very good 32' output (16-32 Hz)......how realistic is that?

Many subwoofers can deliver reasonable power down to 32 Hz, adequate for 16' stops. However, very few subwoofers can deliver enough power at 16 Hz to do justice and those that do tend to be expensive, for example the DefTec Trinity.

That bottom octave can be costly!

Joe Hardy

Maybe it's a good thing that I (completely accidentally) came across this: http://www.visaton.com/en/bauvorschlaege/subwoofer/petitorgue/index.html

Hi,

Choosing speakers is always very subjective.

I would be wary of the Petit Orgues for a number of reasons. Firstly, my choice would not be for a kit. I am not sure that my woodworking skills would be adequate. It also means that you need to add on the price of the wood to the cost of the kit and if you can't make it yourself then there will be more costs.

Secondly, the efficiency is not good if this site is to be believed: http://www.hifisound.de/en/Do-it-yourself-Products/speaker-kits/Subwoofer/VISATON-PETIT-ORGUE-SPEAKER-KIT.html The quoted 76dB sounds low. Figures between 90 and 110 dB are more common. However, I am not sure that the 2.83Volts equates to 1Watt unless they are quoting peak voltage and not rms. This implies that a large amplifier will be required.

Thirdly, one report I read said that for optimum usage they need to be placed at least 1m and preferably 2m from a wall. My music room is not that big; 2m from one wall very nearly is the opposite wall!

Fourthly, they are being a bit creative with the low frequency response. They claim 16Hz but the frequency chart they show has a half power point at about 24 or 25Hz. Having said that, 25Hz is quite a good low frequency point. Many will argue that you really need 16Hz but the room you put it in will affect the response and your ears will "fill in" fundamentals automatically. They just won't flap the carpet for you.

I already had my speakers before I had Hauptwerk. These, supposedly, went down to 45Hz and I found them quite good enough for piano sounds (30Hz min) and adequate for organ. Eventually I bough a subwoofer and that created problems because I had no idea just how many things in the house vibrated at those low frequencies! I spent some time trying to damp out those vibrations.

My personal choice would be to spend my entire budget on a pair of powered or active monitor speakers with the lowest low frequency figure I could find consistent with the upper range being accurate. Later, if I still missed the low frequencies I would look at adding a subwoofer. Most of the sound information is in those higher frequencies anyway even for a bass note. So if you get a poor set of main speakers it will affect everything.

The way I would pick them is to Google something like:
budget monitor speakers
then when you find a promising one use Google again to find some reviews. For instance, Google:
Adam F5 review
to see how the F5 compares with other similar speakers.

I am sorry that this is a bit subjective. I suspect that everyone will have their own method of choosing. Just remember that you will need speakers and amplifiers either as separate units or as a combined active/powered speaker so you need to price them both together. Cables can be expensive too.

I hope this helps,

Audio systems, to properly compliment a moderately sized Hauptwerk system, can be a very expensive proposition even for a home environment. I had the opportunity to test several brands of audio systems (Definitive Technology, Genelec, Focal, etc) but was always left with the feeling that something was missing. I always seemed to fall back on the simplest solution which was a pair of good headphones. In my case I use AKG 701's (a recommendation by Brett Milan). The AKG's are excellent sounding and have a spatial effect that is quite authentic. The frequency response is excellent, all the way from a 32ft Bourdon to the highest 1ft stops. The only thing that is missing is that "feel" you get when you hear a 32ft open or stopped pipe. I always supplement my headphones with the Focal subwoofer, but any brand subwoofer would do. It just happens that I bought a pair of Focal CSM65's with their matching subwoofer, but the previous subwoofer I tried ( Definitive Technology) was equally as effective. I not only hear the organ sound through my headphones but feel the low low's that you normally experience when you hear low pedal pipes.

Although I have a pair of Focal self-powered speakers, I rarely use them. It seems like a simple thing to do ( i.e. headphones plus sub-woofer) and probably most Hauptwerk owners already know about it. I thought it might be a good option for someone that lives in an apartment or lives close to other people.
In my particular situation, I could make as much noise as I wanted, since I had no neighbors but still preferred the headphones. I have been using this combination since 2008. The ONLY audio system I heard recently that I would say was a better than what I have now, was a 32 channel system but I can't even imagine how much something like that would cost.

I would recommend that you at least experiment with a pair of AKG701 or 702 headphones and just about any brand subwoofer before spending a lot of money on a pair of speakers. In my experience, one pair of speakers is inadequate for any organ of two manuals or more.

Antoni Scott

I often wonder as well what some have tied up in their sound systems and what ever the amount is that's fine, some can go all out and others (like me) can't for one reason or another. If a person can invest in at least an 8 channel soundcard, then do some scrounging from there you can put together a pretty remarkable sounding HW system on the cheap relatively speaking, or at least cut the investment considerably.

Most people in this day and age of in home electronics will already have some audio equipment be it a simple receiver and some speakers or a larger A / V set-up. I already had two receivers and a couple pairs of larger 3-way and smaller bookshelf speakers. I picked up another receiver for free, bought a decent pair of tower speakers at a garage sale for $10 each, bought some better quality Polk Audio book shelf speakers for $99, another smaller receiver with speakers for $179, and sub for $169 on sale. I also invested in 2- BBE Sonic Maximizers, one which was new @ $129 and one used I think for $75 if I recall correctly. So, not counting the earlier receiver and speaker purchases prior to starting this adventure but including the soundcard as well ($189), I have a total of $850 invested. So even for a low cost system such as mine you can jump to $1000 or more pretty quickly, but if I hadn't scrounged it could have been $2000+ pretty easy. I also could have not purchased a few of the items I do have, would still have what I need and had saved even more money, but for what I do have invested it really does sound quite remarkable and I have no problems raising the roof on the place.

Marc

Back in the beginning of my Hauptwerk experience, I got an eight channel sound card with the intention of using a pair of speakers for each manual and pedal division. I did have a good pair of vintage speakers (Acoustic Research AR9's) which compared even to today's speaker standards are quite good. I also had miscellaneous pairs of speakers of questionable quality. The real problem, which I discovered right away, was that the pairs of speakers were all mismatched. I realized, too late, that the four pairs of speakers should have been all the same brand and size. Speakers have an inherent colorization which they impart to any sound that goes through them. I switched speaker pairs around, dedicating the worst ones to the pedal division. Again, the result was unsatisfactory. As a result of a recommendation from Brett Milan, I purchased a pair of AKG 701 headphones. I was stunned by the excellent frequency response and spatial impression they gave me.

Still, I yearned for a good pair of speakers so that I, or others, could listen to the organ while someone played. I was guided by several recommendations. Definitive Technology 450's, Genelec 8040's Focal CSM 650's, etc. As to be expected, the least expensive speaker (Definitive Technology) did not sound as good as the most expensive (Genelec 8040). There was little difference between the Genelec 8040 and the Focal CSM650, so I opted for them. I had the luxury of actually trying out these speakers with my Hauptwerk system rather than guessing how they would sound. I settled on the Focal because the quality difference was minimal but the price difference was quite high. Either way, regardless of which of the three brands I tested, an eight channel system would be quite costly, more so than the Hauptwerk system. As with most purchases, there is a trade-off and you usually get what you pay for. I couldn't justify spending so much money on speakers that even at their best, still left something to be desired.
Interestingly, the AKG 701's sound better than any speaker I have heard so far. The only thing they lacked was the feel you get when a huge pedal pipe of large scale just fills the air with that satisfying rumble. There is nothing like a soft 16' or 32 Bourdon or Open Diapason underneath the sound of a manual division.
Since I already had the complimentary Focal subwoofer, I use it with my headphones all the time. It adds just the right amount of fill to the low registers, and as I said in my previous post I rarely use the Focal speakers.

Looking back at what I've done over the past 5+ years in this HW adventure I'd still say to this day that the most critical and important investment I've made was to purchase a multi-channel soundcard, at the time I went with the M-Audio 1010LT and it's still in use as we speak. A "pro" or sometimes referred to here as a "semi-pro" multi-channel soundcard is really the first step of the puzzle if going to speakers and until you invest in one you really can't go any further. Being I'm not a headphones fan and wanted others (whether they want to hear it or not ) besides myself to hear HW in all it's glory, I was convinced early on that purchasing a decent soundcard was going to be one of my first and most important purchases, that decision has paid off in spades since day one.

Once you have the foundation (soundcard) in place you can then add and experiment as time and funds permit. Over time I've ended up trying a number of speakers, speaker placement, amps, audio routing and so on but have now left things alone for the past year or more and to this day can sit down, fire up HW and get a smile on my face (including any visitors) every time. To y knowledge I'm the only person within a 50+ mile radius (or more?) that has a cathedral organ in his house! Cool? I'd say quite cool indeed!

Marc

Over time I've ended up trying a number of speakers, speaker placement, amps, audio routing and so on but have now left things alone for the past year or more and to this day can sit down, fire up HW and get a smile on my face (including any visitors) every time.
Marc

Have you shared anywhere already what your various gear / findings were? I'm currently at the phase where I need to invest in another 4-6 speakers and I'm trying to be diligent and learn from others who've already trod down this road. thanks!

Ηey there.....thank you all for your opinions. Turned out really helpful, especially since a subwoofer would be a costly solution....
In case anybody wants to know or is seeking opinions like I was, I opted for a pair KRK Rokit RP6 Active studio Monitors at a very good price. Their performance exceeds expectations, the sound quality is terrific and, as for the frequency response, it can be a little misleading; while a few notes in the softer 16' registers are being (only slightly) underrepresented, the frequency spectrum of various organs (Zurek, CCC, Hereford) gets a good treatment from the speakers and fills the entire room (not to mention that even 32' registers, with a little repitching, achieve their desired effect). My rating for them would be an A; definitely one of the best value-for-money.