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Multiple Speakers and Surround Sample Sets

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CHRIS 037

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Multiple Speakers and Surround Sample Sets

PostSun Aug 10, 2014 9:25 am

Multiple Speakers and Surround Sample Sets

While others may find this interesting, this posting is mainly aimed at those HW folks that use multiple speakers.

While the whole idea of surround sample sets is a good one, I have found it difficult to get the kind of sound I had hoped for using multiple speakers. These sets are meant to be used with a stereo pair of speakers in front, and a stereo pair in the rear, I think.

(I had not been playing much live for the past month or so due to the excessive hot weather (90+ degrees day after day). The house really heats up and the multiple powered speakers just add to the problem. But in the past few days the heat is less and my air conditioner can cope with it.)

I decided to explore the sound of the two big surround sets I have: The Zwolle and Caen organs from Sonus Paradisi. Normally I have been using these organs dry to get a close up sound. But both these cathedral organs do sound wonderful with a big ambience.

So, I started by loading the Caen surround set to my speaker grouping that has 42 stereo pairs (plus subwoofer stereo pair). The front samples are loaded with the reverb tails cut to .25 seconds. These samples are output to the 42 stereo groups with the Grand Organ and Pedal in the center, the Recit to the right, and the Positiv to the left. This organ fits my system well with only one group having two ranks---the others just single ranks each. However, the Pedal gets 12 ranks---basically all the 16' and 32' ranks. All ranks (front and rear) are loaded in 24-bit, 48 KHz.

This gives me a nice closer sound for the front and main organ sounds. And, as I have found previously, using stereo pairs gives a much better quality sound than loading a wet rank in mono. I have found that I don't like the huge hollow sound I get if I load the front set with no tail cutting. That many speakers with full reverb going is just too much of a muddle.

Next I set up a new output method for the rear surround samples. What I had done before is route the rear samples to a couple speakers to the opposite side of the room from the front speakers.

My new approach:

I had a pair of MOTU outputs that were unused. They don't plug into any actual speakers. I set them to the Main output group and routed all of the surround ranks to that MOTU output. Then I created an HW Aux output called "REAR" that goes to another one of the MOTU outputs. That output physically plugs into the Rear inputs of the Lexicon surround reverb unit. That Lexicon output drives two powered speakers at the opposite side of the room from the main speakers. I then added the Aux REAR output to the Main Output so that the surround samples can play through the Lexicon rear speakers.

And to enhance that rear sound more, I added two more rear speakers that passed the rear sounds through yet another Lexicon reverb. The thought is that the more one can distribute and reverb the sampled surround sounds, the more realistic it should be. I needed the whole room to get full of sound.

The sound was now pretty impressive, but there was no reverb sound coming from the front where the main sounds were. A partial solution to this was to set up another MOTU output I call "REVERB" and make that output another AUX output. This output was physically connected to the Lexicon front stereo inputs. The Lexicon front output goes to my huge RTR full-range subwoofers (with the 25" woofers, the HW Pedal output goes here too). Then I routed this AUX REVERB also to the Main Outputs group. Now surround sound is available from the front area. This was a clear improvement to making the room really come alive.

The Lexicon surround unit has a number of good surround algorithms (front and rear outputs differ). So, the original samples are now being modified with added reverb, with less to the front and more to the rear, depending on the algorithm.

My next idea comes from my understanding that the more one can distribute the surround sounds, the more one can fill the room and get a more realistic environment. In my situation, this means getting the reverb sounds to more speakers that are spread around the room.

I will always be so thankful that I have the MOTU units. Since I figured out how to use the program Cue Mix, which comes with the MOTU's, I realized that I can distribute the reverb to as many of my 86+ speakers as I may wish to. Cue Mix allows me to route any of the 96 MOTU inputs to any of the 96 MOTU outputs. This mixes these inputs into speakers that HW also uses for the front organ sounds. HW seems to get along fine with this.

My next move was to create yet another AUX output that I called "FRONT" that is routed to one of the few remaining MOTU outputs. This output is then physically connected to an unused MOTU input with a stereo cable. This AUX FRONT is also routed to the Main Output, along with the REVERB and REAR ones.

I now am able to use this surround input from the Main Output to route the original surround samples (with no Lexicon modification) to a number of my front speakers. In fact, I send the surround signals to six front speakers that spread all across the upper front wall. All of these outputs have individual level settings so I can balance the sound as I wish.

The result is a VERY satisfying sound. The whole room is now saturated with reverb. I can set the level as I wish and the Lexicon can vary the whole effect a lot. (The Deep Space setting, for example, gives a totally HUGE environment and is about the most impressive thing I've ever heard in my organ room.) On the other hand, I can cut the Lexicon algorithm back to almost no effect and get the original Caen surround sound.

After getting the Caen (v2.5) to sound terrific, I loaded the Zwolle (v2.5). It is equally impressive, with a fully engulfing surround sound. I can get the whole surround Zwolle loaded in my 32 GB Mac Pro in 24-bit, but again the front samples are cut to .25 seconds. I doubt that I could get this entire very large organ loaded with full reverb front and back. For this bigger organ, I had to double up about 14 ranks with other ones since the 42 groups weren't enough for all 64 ranks. The Pedal takes 8 ranks. I located the Hoofdwerk, Borstwerk, and Pedaal mostly to the center speakers. The Rugwerk goes to the 12 left side speaker pairs and the Bovenpositief goes mostly to the 12 right side speaker pairs.

One of the benefits of using so many separate stereo groups is that as one adds ranks, the whole sound mass increases realistically. For example, when coupling one manual to another, a whole new group of speakers comes into play and the sound jumps up in volume as much as it should, IMO. This is pretty dramatic with these two big organs.

And an example of the benefits of using a surround set is that the reverb for every pipe can be set separately from its front pipe in HW's editing screens.

Call me "Very Satisfied" . . . (Well at least for now. I don't seem to be able to stop myself from tinkering around when new setup ideas hit me.) :D

My, but I really wish that I could afford another big surround sample set. . . maybe someday. . .

Leo Chris.
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Jan Loosman

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Re: Multiple Speakers and Surround Sample Sets

PostSun Sep 14, 2014 1:33 pm

Hi Leo

Nice to read that you include surround sets also in your setups now. In another topic i asked for your meaning regarding surround sets and i consider this topic as your answer. thanks!
It's a good thing to keep al the options open. Some sets can be very satisfying in a stereo dry/simulated dry multichannel setup, while others will come to life when you ad the natural acoustics of the church where they are recorded. It's al about experimenting which sounds best in your room.
Which surround set are you considering next?

Regards Jan
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CHRIS 037

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Re: Multiple Speakers and Surround Sample Sets

PostSun Sep 14, 2014 11:05 pm

(Sorry, I somehow missed your other posting.)

The surround setup mentioned does indeed sound great. But, I only have the two surround sets. (The Rabstejn is too small to count here.)

So, lately when I go to the dry sets I use the external Lexicon surround reverb unit for all the ambience. I have discovered that by y-ing the output from the Lexicon rear stereo output, and connecting it to that MOTU input I called "FRONT" I can get a BIG reverb sound that is very satisfying for the non-surround sets. This set up is on a different start-up config.

So for these sets, the Lexicon rear goes through those 4 rear speakers and now also through the 6 front speakers. And as with the surround sets, the whole room comes alive and feels expanded.

Both HW computers I use go through this system.

My favorite pairing at present:
The St. George's Casavant in the PC and either the Major I or the Zwolle in the Mac Pro
The E.M. Skinner or Casavant in the PC and the Caen C.C. or the Litomysl in the Mac Pro.
The Skinner or the Freedom Morton TO in the PC and the Paramount 450 or 341 in the Mac Pro.

Such wonderful sounds!!!! :D

Leo Chris.

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