Headphone enhancement

Audio systems, to properly compliment a moderately sized Hauptwerk system, can be a very expensive proposition even for a home environment. I had the opportunity to test several brands of audio systems (Definitive Technology, Genelec, Focal, etc) but was always left with the feeling that something was missing. I always seemed to fall back on the simplest solution which was a pair of good headphones. In my case I use AKG 701's (a recommendation by Brett Milan). The AKG's are excellent sounding and have a spatial effect that is quite authentic. The frequency response is excellent, all the way from a 32ft Bourdon to the highest 1ft stops. The only thing that is missing is that "feel" you get when you hear a 32ft open or stopped pipe. I always supplement my headphones with the Focal subwoofer, but any brand subwoofer would do. It just happens that I bought a pair of Focal CSM65's with their matching subwoofer, but the previous subwoofer I tried ( Definitive Technology) was equally as effective. I not only hear the organ sound through my headphones but feel the low low's that you normally experience when you hear low pedal pipes.

Although I have a pair of Focal self-powered speakers, I rarely use them. It seems like a simple thing to do ( i.e. headphones plus sub-woofer) and probably most Hauptwerk owners already know about it. I thought it might be a good option for someone that lives in an apartment or lives close to other people.
In my particular situation, I could make as much noise as I wanted, since I had no neighbors but still preferred the headphones. I have been using this combination since 2008. The ONLY audio system I heard recently that I would say was a better than what I have now, was a 32 channel system but I can't even imagine how much something like that would cost.

Antoni Scott

Hi Antoni,

Check out this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9656

Andrew

Hi Antoni,

I have comparable considerations. I also have a pair of AKG K701, but in January bought a pair of Sennheiser HD 800 and that difference is spectacular. In addition I bought a high quality DAC. The combined result is so good that I have stopped thinking of any other listening option.

Ernst

Hi Ernst:
Hmmm. The Sennheiser HD 800 is better than the AKG 701. Interesting. I'll have to look that up. What is a DAC, and which one do you recommend ?

As I expected, most people are already aware of the headphone/subwoofer combo but I thought I would mention it anyway. About 30 years ago, Panasonic offered a similar device for a car audio system called the "Bone Phone". I never heard or felt one but I don't see them anymore.

Antoni

Hi Ernst:
Hmmm. The Sennheiser HD 800 is better than the AKG 701. Interesting. I'll have to look that up. What is a DAC, and which one do you recommend ?

Hello Antoni,

Tastes and appreciations differ, but many consider the HD 800 as the best (or second best) headphone around at the moment. But that has a price of course. The AKG K701 at the time did cost some $300 and the Sennheiser HD 800 is priced around $1,500 last time I looked.

A DAC is a Digital-Analog Converter, that as the name says converts the digital audio stream of your computer to the analogue sound stream that your headphone (or speakers) need. Any computer has DACs in their (internal/standard) sound card. In Windows PCs these standard inbuilt DACs are mostly mediocre, in Apple computers these are quite good.
In the Hauptwerk guide therefore several audio interfaces are listed for use on Windows PCs to improve the sound quality and, if you wish, for a Apple computer. There are many makes and types for USB or Firewire or other connections.
These audio interfaces (which always includes DACs) are mostly multichannel, in order to facilitate multichannel audio setups.

For headphones you may use subdivision of these audio interfaces, which are not multichannel but only stereo (2-channel).
The multichannel interface type is typical part of a computerised music setup, while a 2 channel (stereo) audio interface is mostly used for audio listening by "audiophiles" and is called in that world simply a DAC.
The usual multichannel audio interfaces range from -say- $100 to $2,000, though there are more expensive ones.
The audiophille stereo audio interfaces (callec DACs) range from $100 to (far) over $20,000 - there are extremes of over $200,000. It´s an entirely different world.

So the first question is: do you want stereo or multichannel.
I do feel that in the stereo DAC market you can buy better sound (but of course costing more) but with the said limitation of 2 channels.
I use a Anedio D2 DAC ($ 1,500), with which I´m very happy. I use it both for my virtual organ and piano and for audio listening - always and only with headphones.
But there are many other good DAC options, though usually you get what you pay for. I feel personally that $1,500 for a stereo DAC is necessary and sufficient.
You should be aware of one potential pitfall with these audiophile stereo DACs: they are not designed for playing life music. So some show a high latency. This is not mentioned in their specs because in the audiophile world nobody bothers about latency. In my case, with the Anedio D2 DAC, that was a problem with approx. 60 msec latency via USB. But I could connect it to an audio interface (which I still had) with digital SPDIF outputs, giving just around 5 msec latency.

There are MANY threads on this forum about DACs and audio interfaces.
Just three of that lot:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12391&hilit=DAC
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13169&hilit=DAC
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12466&hilit=DAC

I asumed from your question that a more extensive explication would be adequate, but maybe I have a
exaggerated - sorry for this lenghty post.

Ernst

About 30 years ago, Panasonic offered a similar device for a car audio system called the "Bone Phone". I never heard or felt one but I don't see them anymore.

How about a ButtKicker? http://www.thebuttkicker.com/pro-audio

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XButtKicker&_nkw=ButtKicker&_sacat=0

Installed one on a friend's organ bench in place of a sub along with some good cans (headset). Great "reaction" from him.

Rgds,
Ed

Adding a sub-woofer to a pair of headphones greatly enhances the effect of low open or stopped pedal pipes. Responses to this original thread have been interesting. I suppose the ultimate sub-woofer would be the ThigPenn subwoofer
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/e ... -subwoofer
that can supposedly go down to 8 hz ( equivalent to a 64 ft pipe). There were plans to install one at the Inter Collegiate church in New York City where Cameron Carpenter was organist for a while. This unit is very powerful. I think that a conventional sub-woofer, or those inexpensive "butt Kicker" devices would be plenty sufficient for a home installation.

Antoni

I guess we'll all need one of those Eminent Thigpen subwoofers
just as soon as someone samples Atlantic City Convention Hall,
or some other organ with a real 64 foot stop.

PAB Gravissimo has a 64-foot pedal stop. Although it's not "real" it is quite good.

Andrew

To Steve Till:
All joking aside, the 64' Diaphone Profunda at Atlantic City is a waste. Huge pipes, occupy a huge space in the chamber and do not contribute anything musical to the sound except a sound that you can't really hear. I would classify it more as a novelty than as an organ stop. You can "sort of" hear it but you can feel it more than you can hear it. A device such as a Thigpen, which I think just creates a since wave, would work well but I'm sure they are very expensive.

Antoni

A device such as a Thigpen, which I think just creates a since wave, would work well but I'm sure they are very expensive.

Last time I looked, the company was estimating about $25,000 installed. I'd call that expensive. In addition, you would probably have to have a structural engineer take a look at your house — to make sure it wouldn't shake apart. Oh, and put your wife's china and glassware in storage somewhere far away from the Thigpen

I'm always working on a tight budget and attempt to spend the least amount possible. a few years ago I picked up a Rodgers 990 (1970 vintage) that I converted to Hauptwerk. Along with the console I got the entire audio system plus amps which consisted of three cabinets with twelve 6x9's in each one, a few cabinets with 15" speakers and a giant cabinet ( about 5ft x 4ft x4 ft) that weighed 300lbs. It contained two 15" or 17" woofers in them with baffles, etc. that were for the 32ft Contre Violone stop in the pedal. I thought this might make a nice sub-woofer. I installed a frequency limiter of around 90 hz. I was utterly amazed at how effective it was. It was actually better sounding than my Focal sub-woofer. It gave that nice purring sound that a 32ft wooden pipe makes. I located it at the far end of my basement ( about 30 feet from the console) and it was totally effective and real sounding. Of course it weighed 300 lbs so I had to mount it on casters. It certainly wasn't for the home installation but it was very impressive.

When I moved, I tried to sell it and then tried to give it away. In the end I had to break it up. What a shame.
Rodgers really had it figured out way back in 1970.

Sounds like you had a Rodgers P-2 cabinet.
It was actually a horn loaded system designed by Electrovoice.
It contained two 15" EV heavy duty bass speakers.
While it was quite effective for 16 foot stops,
it didn't do very well for the big 32' stops unless
you extended the horn, which I did a couple of times.
However, for the Contra Violone, it did pretty well.

A question that may be (at least partially) off-topic...

It has been referred on this thread about 32' and even 64' stops. If I am not mistaken 32' stops start at approx. 16 Hz. Logically 64' stops should be as from 8 Hz.

Considering audio equipment is usually tailored to reproduce sounds ranging from 20 to 20,000 Hz, how to manage such "infra bass" sounds? I understand the subwoofers have specifically been designed to go below the 20 Hz limit, but what about the other elements of the audio setup - in the case of Hauptwerk, I'm referring to the computer audio interface, amps, pre-amps, etc... I'm not aware in particular of any audio board that may handle such low frequencies?

Most decent analogue audio systems will have a frequency response from 20Hz to 20kHz, but they generally won't just stop dead at the lower (or higher) limit, but rather these are the frequencies where the response begins to fall off noticably. Typically, if the response is 'flat' to 20 Hz one might expect the voltage output to be 1/2 at 10 Hz (and the power 1/4).

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the digital outputs (SP/DIF) may have a much lower frequency limit.

Nick