Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:07 pm
Hello all,
A few weeks ago I said I'd try get this posted and finally have found the time so here goes, I will be as brief and to the point as possible. I have been experimenting with multiple ways to both route the audio and load one organ in particular, the sizeable Zurek v5 which is a very nice and also free composite / surround set organ with fairly wet but not drenched acoustics, it's sound gives the impression of a very large church to borderline cathedral sound. I chose to use this organ only with the intent of being able to make good comparisons between each layout I will describe below and what results I heard. This pertains to wet sets only as I have not tried it with any other set (i.e. a dry set), and using 8 channels (4 stereo pairs) of audio. I hope my experimenting here will help others in their quest for that certain sound they are after or in deciding how they want to set up their sound system.
First, my sound system is kind of a mix and match of decent but by no stretch of the imagination top shelf components, some of the names are familiar like Polk, Pioneer, JVC and so on, I also use 2 BBE Sonic Maximizers on channels 1-2 and 5-6 and will eventually get one more for 3-4. I'm sure with better components it would sound even better but is pretty good as is. I use an M-Audio 1010LT soundcard with 8 separate analog outputs. I have 6 channels of audio up front consisting of 3 pairs of speakers left and right stacked vertically on top of each other, the stacks are spaced about 6 feet from each other, they are raised off the floor so when I sit at the bench the lowest speaker in each stack is at about head height and go up from there. The front speaker / amp description is as follows: 4- bookshelf size ported speaker enclosures with 6" drivers and tweeters connected to two separate 2 channel amps which occupy channels 1-2-3-4 of my soundcard, 2- larger tower enclosures that have 8 inch drivers, midrange speakers, and tweeters connected to another 2 channel amp, this amp also drives the woofer off its record out, this amp is connected to channels 5-6, the main idea of this amp for the most part is to either send pedal or lower notes to it or to bolster the lower notes of the organ. Finally to the rear I have one more pair of enclosures with 6 inch drivers connected to yet another 2 channel amp, connected to channels 7-8, these 2 channels and this amp drive the rear speakers for the surround part, the speakers are approx. 8 feet behind me and are mounted 6 feet apart near the ceiling at about 8 feel in height off the floor. My console is centered as close as possible to the left and right of the speakers and is positioned closest to the front speakers. If it's of any relevance my sub is also raised off the floor a couple of feet and is to the back of me centered on the back wall where the rear speakers are also located.
I tried 4 different audio groupings and pipe routing arrangements as follows
1.) I used channels 1-2 as the default speaker group, 3-4-5-6 as mix-down, and I sent the rear surround to 7-8, so basically this is just a straight stereo arrangement. When you go to the loading table all you do is make sure all front stops including the pedal are sent to 1-2, and all rear stops are sent to 7-8, click OK and HW will do the rest. All front speakers including the sub will get the same signal which is the entire organ except for the rear surround part, the back speakers get the surround signal. This set-up results in a very spacious, wide sound but lacks clarity and as you pile on the stops things get quite muddy sounding in fairly short order, many of the stops seem to just get lost in the mix, clarity amongst all of the 4 arrangements listed here is easily the lowest. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound bad, it just doesn't sound as convincing and is maybe the best way I can put it.
2.) I set up 1-2-3-4 as a separate audio group and chose 'cyclic within octaves', 5-6 as mix-down, and again 7-8 as the rear surround. In this example I go down the rank table list and make sure all front stops including the pedal are sent to audio group 1-2-3-4 and all rear stops are sent to 7-8, click OK and HW will once again do it's thing. In this example, since I chose and can use cyclic within octaves for 1-2-3-4 HW will dish out the stops as evenly as possible to 1-2-3-4, 5-6 once again gets everything, and 7-8 receives the rear stops. In this example clarity jumps considerably, I'd say by at least 25% or more, you can hear the left and right of the stops as you go up and down the keyboards and you could swear on certain stops because of the clearness of the sound when used by themselves that you are right there in the church. The bad part is it gets rather bright sounding almost to the point I considered lowering the treble some which I can do but chose not to in order to keep this test as even as possible. Mixtures and higher pitched stops are very much emphasized. Again, you can hear the individual stops more clearly and for single or a limited number of stops selected it's very nice. This arrangement also produces a bit more of a pinched stereo field, not as expansive sounding and more up close sounding, the only other problem is as the stops are piled on there is a considerable amount of inter-modulation, the worst of the 4 arrangements here and to the point of being a bit too hard on the ears when combined with the overly bright sound. Interesting, but on a few other sets early on I used this arrangement for awhile and felt it was pretty good but evidently my tastes have changed or I've now found something better. Again, decent sounding but not as good as it will get, read on.
3.) In this arrangement I followed the example in the HW guide closely but not completely. I set up 1-2-3-4 as a separate audio group, 5 and 6 as two separate mono audio group channels for the pedal only, and 7-8 again as the rear surround. The idea here is to allow HW to distribute the stops amongst the speakers as evenly as possible. In this example in the rank table I once again made sure all manual stops were sent to 1-2-3-4, all the pedal stops to 5-6, and the rear surround part to 7-8, click OK and HW does it's thing. This arrangement is similar sounding to #2 in terms of clarity, but considerably better in the fact is loses the intermodulation I noticed in example #2. The stops blend nicely and you can hear much of the back and forth left and right of the stops including the very fine detail of individual stops to the point you swear you're right there listening to the real thing. The stereo field is once again somewhat narrowed and not as expansive sounding, the organ sounds closer and clarity is again much emphasized. Again, very good sounding and of the examples listed here so far overall sounds the best. I would say this arrangement is probably best suited for dry or drier sets but works fine for wet sets if you like a lot of clarity and a more close up, less expansive sound. Overall for me the biggest thing I once again didn't like is in my set-up it's just a bit too bright and I prefer a more expansive instead of close-up sound, the brightness part could be toned down a number of ways. I would say for this one if you have an organ that is a bit dull sounding and you can't quite figure it out, try this arrangement, it will most definitely wake it up!
4.) In this example I set up 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8 each as their own audio group, so I have 4 audio groups in stereo pairs for this one. In this example you can not use the algorithms as they have no effect. In the rank loading table of the Zurek v5 set there are a total of 3 manual divisions listed as 1, 2 and 3, the pedal division listed as "P", and finally the rear surround listed as "rear." I take the entire first manual division (#1) and send it to 1-2, the entire second division (#2) and send it to 3-4, for the third division (#3) I evenly split it between 1-2 and 3-4, all pedal ranks go to 5-6, and all rear surround to 7-8. I also take any 16' ranks be they pedal or manual and also send them to 5-6 since these are the channels the larger speakers and sub are connected to with the idea of helping those 16' stops, click OK and HW does it's thing. I call this arrangement the divisions routed scheme. For wet sets I would say this one sounds the best, the stereo field opens up more expansively again, the sound is very blended and smooth, no intermodulation, has more clarity but not to the point of being annoying, you can hear the individual divisions nicely as well as they seem to come from slightly different locations. The real intricate detail is not there as strong as in examples 2 and 3 but is still there, just dulled down a little or maybe better described as spread out a bit. For wet sets I would say this arrangement sounds the best or is the best compromise, producing the most realistic sounding results as if you were listening to the real thing from a bit further away distance where the space allows the sound to mix and you hear the results if that's what you like. Some are going to like or prefer this and some are not, I myself probably prefer this sound the most.
A few minor extra details: I use the soundcard's individual volume controls and start with balancing both the left and right of each front speaker including each pairs overall volume to best balance between each pair and to suit me when seated at the console, I then bring up the back speakers until I can just hear them and the front to rear field opens up.
And that's it, I hope for some this proves useful and that some of my experimenting can save others some time in setting up their own audio arrangement.
Most importantly, have fun and enjoy!
Marc
A few weeks ago I said I'd try get this posted and finally have found the time so here goes, I will be as brief and to the point as possible. I have been experimenting with multiple ways to both route the audio and load one organ in particular, the sizeable Zurek v5 which is a very nice and also free composite / surround set organ with fairly wet but not drenched acoustics, it's sound gives the impression of a very large church to borderline cathedral sound. I chose to use this organ only with the intent of being able to make good comparisons between each layout I will describe below and what results I heard. This pertains to wet sets only as I have not tried it with any other set (i.e. a dry set), and using 8 channels (4 stereo pairs) of audio. I hope my experimenting here will help others in their quest for that certain sound they are after or in deciding how they want to set up their sound system.
First, my sound system is kind of a mix and match of decent but by no stretch of the imagination top shelf components, some of the names are familiar like Polk, Pioneer, JVC and so on, I also use 2 BBE Sonic Maximizers on channels 1-2 and 5-6 and will eventually get one more for 3-4. I'm sure with better components it would sound even better but is pretty good as is. I use an M-Audio 1010LT soundcard with 8 separate analog outputs. I have 6 channels of audio up front consisting of 3 pairs of speakers left and right stacked vertically on top of each other, the stacks are spaced about 6 feet from each other, they are raised off the floor so when I sit at the bench the lowest speaker in each stack is at about head height and go up from there. The front speaker / amp description is as follows: 4- bookshelf size ported speaker enclosures with 6" drivers and tweeters connected to two separate 2 channel amps which occupy channels 1-2-3-4 of my soundcard, 2- larger tower enclosures that have 8 inch drivers, midrange speakers, and tweeters connected to another 2 channel amp, this amp also drives the woofer off its record out, this amp is connected to channels 5-6, the main idea of this amp for the most part is to either send pedal or lower notes to it or to bolster the lower notes of the organ. Finally to the rear I have one more pair of enclosures with 6 inch drivers connected to yet another 2 channel amp, connected to channels 7-8, these 2 channels and this amp drive the rear speakers for the surround part, the speakers are approx. 8 feet behind me and are mounted 6 feet apart near the ceiling at about 8 feel in height off the floor. My console is centered as close as possible to the left and right of the speakers and is positioned closest to the front speakers. If it's of any relevance my sub is also raised off the floor a couple of feet and is to the back of me centered on the back wall where the rear speakers are also located.
I tried 4 different audio groupings and pipe routing arrangements as follows
1.) I used channels 1-2 as the default speaker group, 3-4-5-6 as mix-down, and I sent the rear surround to 7-8, so basically this is just a straight stereo arrangement. When you go to the loading table all you do is make sure all front stops including the pedal are sent to 1-2, and all rear stops are sent to 7-8, click OK and HW will do the rest. All front speakers including the sub will get the same signal which is the entire organ except for the rear surround part, the back speakers get the surround signal. This set-up results in a very spacious, wide sound but lacks clarity and as you pile on the stops things get quite muddy sounding in fairly short order, many of the stops seem to just get lost in the mix, clarity amongst all of the 4 arrangements listed here is easily the lowest. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound bad, it just doesn't sound as convincing and is maybe the best way I can put it.
2.) I set up 1-2-3-4 as a separate audio group and chose 'cyclic within octaves', 5-6 as mix-down, and again 7-8 as the rear surround. In this example I go down the rank table list and make sure all front stops including the pedal are sent to audio group 1-2-3-4 and all rear stops are sent to 7-8, click OK and HW will once again do it's thing. In this example, since I chose and can use cyclic within octaves for 1-2-3-4 HW will dish out the stops as evenly as possible to 1-2-3-4, 5-6 once again gets everything, and 7-8 receives the rear stops. In this example clarity jumps considerably, I'd say by at least 25% or more, you can hear the left and right of the stops as you go up and down the keyboards and you could swear on certain stops because of the clearness of the sound when used by themselves that you are right there in the church. The bad part is it gets rather bright sounding almost to the point I considered lowering the treble some which I can do but chose not to in order to keep this test as even as possible. Mixtures and higher pitched stops are very much emphasized. Again, you can hear the individual stops more clearly and for single or a limited number of stops selected it's very nice. This arrangement also produces a bit more of a pinched stereo field, not as expansive sounding and more up close sounding, the only other problem is as the stops are piled on there is a considerable amount of inter-modulation, the worst of the 4 arrangements here and to the point of being a bit too hard on the ears when combined with the overly bright sound. Interesting, but on a few other sets early on I used this arrangement for awhile and felt it was pretty good but evidently my tastes have changed or I've now found something better. Again, decent sounding but not as good as it will get, read on.
3.) In this arrangement I followed the example in the HW guide closely but not completely. I set up 1-2-3-4 as a separate audio group, 5 and 6 as two separate mono audio group channels for the pedal only, and 7-8 again as the rear surround. The idea here is to allow HW to distribute the stops amongst the speakers as evenly as possible. In this example in the rank table I once again made sure all manual stops were sent to 1-2-3-4, all the pedal stops to 5-6, and the rear surround part to 7-8, click OK and HW does it's thing. This arrangement is similar sounding to #2 in terms of clarity, but considerably better in the fact is loses the intermodulation I noticed in example #2. The stops blend nicely and you can hear much of the back and forth left and right of the stops including the very fine detail of individual stops to the point you swear you're right there listening to the real thing. The stereo field is once again somewhat narrowed and not as expansive sounding, the organ sounds closer and clarity is again much emphasized. Again, very good sounding and of the examples listed here so far overall sounds the best. I would say this arrangement is probably best suited for dry or drier sets but works fine for wet sets if you like a lot of clarity and a more close up, less expansive sound. Overall for me the biggest thing I once again didn't like is in my set-up it's just a bit too bright and I prefer a more expansive instead of close-up sound, the brightness part could be toned down a number of ways. I would say for this one if you have an organ that is a bit dull sounding and you can't quite figure it out, try this arrangement, it will most definitely wake it up!
4.) In this example I set up 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8 each as their own audio group, so I have 4 audio groups in stereo pairs for this one. In this example you can not use the algorithms as they have no effect. In the rank loading table of the Zurek v5 set there are a total of 3 manual divisions listed as 1, 2 and 3, the pedal division listed as "P", and finally the rear surround listed as "rear." I take the entire first manual division (#1) and send it to 1-2, the entire second division (#2) and send it to 3-4, for the third division (#3) I evenly split it between 1-2 and 3-4, all pedal ranks go to 5-6, and all rear surround to 7-8. I also take any 16' ranks be they pedal or manual and also send them to 5-6 since these are the channels the larger speakers and sub are connected to with the idea of helping those 16' stops, click OK and HW does it's thing. I call this arrangement the divisions routed scheme. For wet sets I would say this one sounds the best, the stereo field opens up more expansively again, the sound is very blended and smooth, no intermodulation, has more clarity but not to the point of being annoying, you can hear the individual divisions nicely as well as they seem to come from slightly different locations. The real intricate detail is not there as strong as in examples 2 and 3 but is still there, just dulled down a little or maybe better described as spread out a bit. For wet sets I would say this arrangement sounds the best or is the best compromise, producing the most realistic sounding results as if you were listening to the real thing from a bit further away distance where the space allows the sound to mix and you hear the results if that's what you like. Some are going to like or prefer this and some are not, I myself probably prefer this sound the most.
A few minor extra details: I use the soundcard's individual volume controls and start with balancing both the left and right of each front speaker including each pairs overall volume to best balance between each pair and to suit me when seated at the console, I then bring up the back speakers until I can just hear them and the front to rear field opens up.
And that's it, I hope for some this proves useful and that some of my experimenting can save others some time in setting up their own audio arrangement.
Most importantly, have fun and enjoy!
Marc
-up to my setup. I have two equator d5's, an SVS sb-1000 sub, and two rokit 8's. I just purchased a nice set of Focal Alpha 65's but I don't think the quality of their sound is enough improved to warrant their hike in price; therefore, I contacted my sweetwater sales associate and I'm going to swap out the Focals for 6 Eris E5's. 
I have a feeling that this change-up will really create a huge shift in sound. 
)
