It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:16 am


Still learning multi-channel

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

larryb

Member

  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:10 pm

Still learning multi-channel

PostMon Jan 19, 2015 10:00 pm

I read advice on HW Forum that mix-down isn't necessary if one is not making recordings via HW. Is that a fair statement? I also am interested in utilizing the crossover feature of my M- Audio pair of subs on one of my 4 pairs of M-audio 1010 card. I would use the other 3 channels to run 6 Mackie HR824s. I am considering adding another pair of Mackie hr824s, one to the left-channel sub and one to the right. In that instance, with the cycled feature, would it be necessary to send the specific lower notes of each rank, say below 8', to the subs or let any upper notes sent to the subs by cycling bypass through to that sub's companion monitor? Am I understanding this issue and HW features correctly? And would it make a difference using this with the stereo setting, or mono? Any other "sound" advice applicable to my particular setup would also be appreciated. Many thanks for all the wonderful support found on the HW Forum. Larry
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15444
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostTue Jan 20, 2015 6:17 am

Hello Larry,

larryb wrote:I read advice on HW Forum that mix-down isn't necessary if one is not making recordings via HW. Is that a fair statement?


Apart from making mixed-down stereo audio recordings from multi-channel set-ups, some other common uses of aux mix-downs are:

1. Sending mixed-down output to a stereo reverb processor, which itself drives a pair of stereo speakers positioned a little further away (e.g. behind the listener) to give a three-dimensional spatial effect (especially if using dry, or fairly-dry, samples).

2. Sending mixed-down output directly to a pair of stereo speakers positioned a little further away, also to give a three-dimensional spatial effect (applicable for wet or dry samples).

3. Sending mixed-down output to a sub-woofer (or stereo pair of sub-woofers), thus avoiding the need to have as many sub-woofers as you have full-range speakers.

larryb wrote:And would it make a difference using this with the stereo setting, or mono?


Most people feel that stereo is more realistic, especially for wet sample sets, and also unless you have *lots* of speakers (20 or more, say, in which case the loss of spatial effect from using is mono would be offset more by that from the large number of speakers).

larryb wrote: I also am interested in utilizing the crossover feature of my M- Audio pair of subs on one of my 4 pairs of M-audio 1010 card. I would use the other 3 channels to run 6 Mackie HR824s. I am considering adding another pair of Mackie hr824s, one to the left-channel sub and one to the right. In that instance, with the cycled feature, would it be necessary to send the specific lower notes of each rank, say below 8', to the subs or let any upper notes sent to the subs by cycling bypass through to that sub's companion monitor?


Even pipes below 8' pitch will have mid/high frequencies, so it's important that any pipes routed to the subs also have full-range speakers to handle those frequencies.

I think you could either:

a) Attach your pair of sub-woofers to one pair of the 1010LT's stereo outputs. Attach your existing 6 Mackies as 3 stereo pairs to the other three 1010LT stereo outputs. Set up the 3 stereo Mackie 1010LT outputs as 3 stereo logical audio outputs in Hauptwerk, all within the default audio output group, and with no other groups. Set up a fourth logical stereo output in Hauptwerk as an aux mix-down, and use it to drive your pair of subs. Configure the other three logical outputs to use that mix-down, so that all pipes get routed to your subs (indirectly, via the mix-down) as well as (directly) to their (cyclic) full-range speakers. In this scenario there would be no need to buy a fourth pair of full-range speakers.

... or:

b) Attach your pair of sub-woofers to one pair of the 1010LT's stereo outputs. Buy another pair of full-range speakers and attach them to the full-range (pass-though) outputs on your subs. Attach your existing 6 Mackies as 3 stereo pairs to the other three 1010LT stereo outputs. Set up the 3 stereo Mackie 1010LT outputs as 3 stereo logical audio outputs in Hauptwerk, all within the default audio output group. Create a second audio output group named 'Bass pipes' (or similar). Set up a fourth logical stereo output in Hauptwerk named 'Bass pipes', use it to drive your pair of subs, and put it in the 'Bass pipes' group. You will then have two groups: 'Bass pipes' with just the stereo pair of subs (which indirectly also drive their their attached pair of full-range speakers) in it, and the other default group with the 3 remaining stereo pairs of full-range speakers. Then when loading the organ (via the 'Organ | Load organ, adjust rank audio/memory options/routing' screen), send the bass portions of relevant ranks (perhaps those below 8' C) to the 'Bass pipes' group, and everything else to the default group.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

larryb

Member

  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostTue Jan 20, 2015 10:25 pm

Thank You, Martin, for your very helpful and thorough reply. The power of the Forum! I will give both a try. I didn't make clear that I already have the additional pair of Mackies, so if you think that would perform better than the mix-down to the subs, please let me know. Again, many thanks for your reply. Larry
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15444
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostWed Jan 21, 2015 5:03 am

Thanks, Larry.

You're welcome.

The advantage of approach a) would be that all pipes/ranks would benefit from the sub, and all ranks would also benefit from having their pipes distributed amongst multiple speakers. However, it would be a big shame to waste your additional pair of full-range speakers.

Given that you have the speakers, maybe the best option would be a), but with 4 stereo pairs of speakers in the default audio output group, instead of 3. That would need a total of 5 stereo pairs audio output channels. The M-Audio 1010LT has 4 stereo analogue outputs and 1 stereo S/PDIF output ( http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/delta-1010lt#.VL932C5cp8E ), so perhaps you could attach a small DAC to the S/PDIF output to use for the additional stereo pair. Alternatively, since the drivers for the 1010LT cards allow up to 4 1010LTs to be installed in a computer, you could add a second 1010LT card. (You will also need to connect a cable to synchronise the clocks of the two cards in that case.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

larryb

Member

  • Posts: 26
  • Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostWed Jan 21, 2015 8:53 am

Wow, so much to learn! Thank you, Martin for sharing your knowledge and expertise. I'm looking forward to experimenting with these variations. I've always been concerned that maybe too much bass was going to the Mackies, so this should help tremendously. It will take a while to run all the variations (slow learner and limited time) but I'll let you know how it turns out. Many thanks. Larry
Offline

Mixtuur4st

Member

  • Posts: 97
  • Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:13 pm
  • Location: Breda, the Netherlands

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostWed Jan 21, 2015 12:11 pm

Martin Dyde wrote:
Alternatively, since the drivers for the 1010LT cards allow up to 4 1010LTs to be installed in a computer, you could add a second 1010LT card. (You will also need to connect a cable to synchronise the clocks of the two cards in that case.)


As far as I know the Win7-drivers for the M-Audio Delta cards do not support multi-card synchronisation.
The drivers for WinXP did.

Rgds,
Jack
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15444
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostWed Jan 21, 2015 12:13 pm

Thanks, Jack.

I didn't know that (I haven't used a 1010LT for a few years).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

JimE

Member

  • Posts: 29
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:13 pm
  • Location: St Paul, MN

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostWed Jan 21, 2015 1:04 pm

I don’t know if it’s possible to connect up more than two but, in my system I have been successfully using Win7 for the past 2 years with two 1010LT’s sync’ed together.

As Martin said you can use the S/PDIF out as an additional stereo output. I'm using one for headphones and the other for an outboard reverb.

If interested a block diagram for my setup is located down the page in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12658

Jim E
Offline

Mixtuur4st

Member

  • Posts: 97
  • Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:13 pm
  • Location: Breda, the Netherlands

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostWed Jan 21, 2015 1:31 pm

Hi Jim,

In my system I have 4 1010's (the "big" ones with the breakout boxes).
They work, I use all of my 40 (4 x 10) outputs.
But in Win7 I can't syncronize them (as I did before with WinXP).
As a result, every 5 or so minutes the sound gets extremely distorted.
That lasts for 4 or 5 seconds, then it is ok again.
This is all very hardware-dependant , I experimented with several pc's (1 to 2 years old).

The above results are from a system with Asus mainboard and AMD sixcore.
This situation is acceptable for me, I am just an amateur organist, playing for myself, not for a big audience.

Though M-Audio on it's website clearly states that multi-card synchronisation is not supported for Win7 it is obvious that I would be very gratefull if anyone could tell me how to achieve it anyway.

Have fun,
Jack
Offline

Mixtuur4st

Member

  • Posts: 97
  • Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:13 pm
  • Location: Breda, the Netherlands

Re: Still learning multi-channel

PostTue Apr 28, 2015 8:46 am

Mixtuur4st wrote:

As far as I know the Win7-drivers for the M-Audio Delta cards do not support multi-card synchronisation.
The drivers for WinXP did.

Rgds,
Jack


This is true and it is not true.
Confusing it was for me, but here is the solution:

In the Asio driver program one can select the synchronisation of the audiocard(s).
1. Internal (crystal of the card).
2. External (by word clock or S/PDIF).

In the case you have more than one card of the M-Audio Delta series there used to be a third option to choose: internal synchronisation by the pci-bus in the computer.
Advantages: no need for external cables, and also cards without WordClock and S/PDIF could be synchronized (e.g. the Delta 44).

This third option is not available anymore in the newest M-Audio drivers (Win7).
Therefore it is mentioned on the M-Audio website that synchronisation of more than one M-Audio card is no longer supported: this is generally not true, as only the possibility of internal synchronization (by the pci-bus)
has disappeared.
One still can synchronize up to four audiocards by means of WordClock or S/PDIF cable.

Thanks to Jim E for his posting in this thread which made me thinking.
Now my 1010's are synchronized, and working without the earlier mentioned periodic distortion.

Rgds,
Jack.

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest