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What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

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bourdon

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Re: What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 1:02 pm

Very interesting thread indeed.
Gives me the opportunity to mention an issue I've often wondered about : Why does an organ music CD , or a recording of an Hauptwerk sample set on my organ played on my home audio system sound "better" ( I mean by that: "clearer" and more "realistic"), than direct playing of the same sample set through the same audio system (amps and loudspeakers) ?
I wondered wether this could be only "subjective" , i.e. when you play "directly, you expect a louder and more present sound ( as in church) than when you listen to a recording . But then, I wouldn't notice a difference between directly playing on HK and afterwards listening to the same piece .
Even when listening through Contrebombarde I find my recordings more "realistic" ?
Is it finally a technical matter or all in the brain ??.. :wink:
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mdyde

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Re: What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Hauptwerk's built-in audio recorder records exactly (byte-for-byte) the audio stream that it sends to your audio interface, so if you're comparing a recording made that way with the impression you had when playing it live then (assuming you play it back through the same audio interface, with the same driver, and at the same level, etc.) I think any perceived difference must indeed be imagined.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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engrssc

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Re: What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 2:25 pm

A "slight" thought. Are you listening at the same position when playing live vs listening to a recording? Even in church, the organist hears a slight difference as compared to what the congregation (audience) hears, everything being equal. One reason we made the church organ console moveable was to permit voicing the organ from the center of the church more nearly replicating what everyone else hears. When, after the initial voicing and I moved the console back to it's "normal" position, I was very tempted to make considerable changes, which I didn't do. Later, we moved the console back to the center and found everything sounded much better (again) with no voicing changes. :wink:

Rgds,
Ed
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bourdon

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Re: What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 6:51 pm

Answering to Martin and Engrssc:

1) Yes, I listen to the play -back coming directly from the computer with which the music was recorded and going out strictly through the same devices : sound card, home amps and loudspeakers. ( perhaps putting the output slightly up on the amps). I also listen from the same position in the same space, that is sitting on the organ bench .
( otherwise , of course, any difference in the output and play back devices or listening position would introduce a bias , a flaw ,rendering my question not pertinent )

I know HK records the output bit to bit in very high sample quality; so as you don't have any other explanation, it must be a mere subjective perception on my part...

2) Same phenomenon when listening on Contrebombarde to a piece I previously uploaded : I still find the play back output more "realistic" , and that ,strangely enough ,although the quality is a bit downgraded from WAV to MP3 … Still, lest somebody else experienced the same feeling, it must also be subjective ( perhaps because when you listen to a recorded organ ( or play on recorded sound-banks,) whatever the quality , you don't expect the same sensation as if you were listening or playing live ?…).
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bourdon

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Re: What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 7:06 pm

Finally, to put it in other words ( and that will be all !..) ,:
- when I listen to something I recorded on such or such organ captured on a high quality sound bank, I find it realistic enough to "believe" it was recorded on the real organ.
- but during the time I'm playing on this same virtual organ , whatever its quality, I don't fully find myself playing on the real instrument ( which is at least explainable by the inevitable lack of environment: physical presence in the Church,physical contact with the instrument, real acoustics of the building, light, air, etc….).
Well, that's all ! Sorry if I have taken too much place on the forum with these few remarks!
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engrssc

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Re: What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 10:05 pm

Not at all. I find your thoughts to be quite relevant to the subject. Perception is very interesting. Studies have been made which, at least in my mind, aren't conclusive but rather lead one into further questions. In one study, a person was blindfolded and asked to make a (sound/audio) judgement Then with the blindfold removed, there was a slight different judgement although nothing had changed except for removing the blindfold. Our senses tend to guide our judgement. This is true with our visualization (our eyes) as well as what can be called, our mind's eye.

Rgds,
Ed
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1961TC4ME

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Re: What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

PostSat Feb 28, 2015 1:23 am

bourdon wrote:Finally, to put it in other words ( and that will be all !..) ,:
- when I listen to something I recorded on such or such organ captured on a high quality sound bank, I find it realistic enough to "believe" it was recorded on the real organ.
- but during the time I'm playing on this same virtual organ , whatever its quality, I don't fully find myself playing on the real instrument ( which is at least explainable by the inevitable lack of environment: physical presence in the Church,physical contact with the instrument, real acoustics of the building, light, air, etc….).
Well, that's all ! Sorry if I have taken too much place on the forum with these few remarks!


An interesting post indeed and the original question has once again kind of morphed into another area here but all is relevant depending on your desired outcome. You don't say exactly how you are making your comparisons other than sitting at the bench, so I will make a couple of assumptions, the main one being you are comparing playing live and what you hear in comparison to what you hear during playback through the same system. When you compare sitting at the bench playing and how things sound listening to the same piece you've uploaded, there's a couple of major factors. First, regardless if your listening situation at the bench is playing live through head phones or speakers, or is recorded using the HW recorder, and is then played back using the HW recorder, providing you're using the exact same listening situation for the playback part, should and will result in no difference in sound at all. Once you upload the recording to CCH, then the game changes as you may be going from listening to a multi-channel set up in your room to listening to the same recording through head phones or what have you. Even if you listen to the exact same uploaded recording through your multi-channel HW set-up, it is going to sound different because you are going from multi-channel to straight stereo as the multi-channel part is then lost. CCH will only play back what you've recorded in 2- channel stereo regardless of how many speakers you have and how you have the audio in HW set up.

So, the point here being and brings up something else, if you like how your recordings sound through CCH better than how you like the sound when you play live, may indicate considering a change in how you have your "live" set-up configured while listening at the bench. More proof it isn't just about what makes a good organ speaker.

Marc
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