What makes a speaker a good "organ speaker"?

Agree, Go for it. The "problem" with a subjective subject like speakers is that asking 6 people, you'll probably get 10 opinions. Even moving a given speaker from one location to a slightly different nearby location will make sometimes a difference. Playing a real pipe organ has similar difference, that is, what the organist hears as compared to what the "audience" hears. Brett has developed a neat sample set - St. Eucaire Cavaille-Coll S that permits you to adjust the "listener's position".

The console in our church is easy to move from the position that it normally occupies, over to the center aisle. Useful when voicing the instrument.

Probably a good thing that, for the most part, real pipe work isn't easy to move. Voicing is pretty much the only user defined changes that can be made.

Rgds,
Ed

Ed nails it on the head! When it comes to questions about speakers, be ready to open the can of worms! When you're talking a pair of Mackies vs. a home theater surround system we're really talking about 2 very different set-ups and it's hard to make an even comparison between 2 speakers alone no matter how good they are up against strategically placed multiple speakers. Then there's the question of what kind of sample sets you're using (wet or dry) and what's the best approach for either to get the best results. Although the 2 Mackies (or another pair of X brand monitors) will likely sound very good, there's really no comparing them by themselves to the dramatic difference in the sound field you will achieve with multiple speakers in a surround set-up, it's like going from 2 dimensional to 3.

There's no substitution for either multiple amps and speakers, a multi-channel amp and speakers or multi powered monitors as you see illustrated here quite often, but if you're looking for a decent sounding minimal fuss set-up providing your plans are for wet sets (dry sets are a whole different deal), either unhook and drag your Onkyo system over to the organ room and give it a try first to see how you like it, or go out and pick up another surround system that is comparable or maybe even up the ladder a ways as it sounds like your budget permits, save yourself all the relocating work, set up the new system with the front and rear speaker arrangement as it is intended, use your on-board Mac sound card (which I understand are pretty good as is), you will end up with a very respectable sounding system, and enjoy!

If you haven't done so already, read this post as you might pick up a few ideas here as well >> viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13910


Marc

Just to add a bit more to this, when it comes to sound systems in general, it all starts with what is your desired outcome or what is it you want to do? And by that I mean it's more than just you want it to sound good, that's a given and everybody wants that. For me it starts with what type of set(s) you are planning to use the most, wet or dry and how much control you want in manipulating how the set is loaded and then directed to your sound system, from there you start down a certain path of component selection. You can go straight stereo, hook up to a good home theater system and get very good results, good enough that you may never decide to go further. However, with this option you have the least amount of control over the set in terms of how it's loaded and directed to your sound system, you pretty much have to settle for what you get and your only real control is in adjusting the bass and treble. If you're really into tweaking your sound, want the most control over it and the most realistic sounding results, then multi-channel is the way to go, thus requiring you start piecing together over time or all at once the needed components which starts with the proper sound card, then amps and speakers or powered monitors and so on. If you've got $2500+ to invest, you can get a real good start on things.

In the beginning I started out with 2 channels and straight stereo and was very happy with it, however being the type that is always curious to see what more I can do and what it will sound like, I couldn't leave things alone and added another pair of speakers but was still running just straight stereo. From there I decided to go down the path of multi-channel, started piecing things together, ended up where I am now and am very happy I did. At this point I've put together using mostly a hodge-podge of components a very respectable souding 8 channel set-up, but as I tend to be I'm still considering going further. I recently had planned to ditch my separate 2 channel amps in favor of one 7 channel amp, however I discovered after the 1st of the year that the unit I was interested in was discontinued, so I'm still running my multiple amp arrangement for now with plans to keep looking. Honestly, once you get going with this HW obsession it never really ends!

Marc

Marc, you may want to consider an 8 channel amp. Even if you go 7.1, it could happen that in the future you would go to 8 front channels. Then a separate lesser quality 2 channel amp could power the rear spkrs. This along with a powered sub maybe? Parts Express has several times had sub amps on sale at almost half their normal price. They also have sub amps that can be built into a sub cabinet if you go the route of a DIY (sub) build making such into a respectable powered sub such as the House Wrecker.

Of course the power amp involved makes quite a difference in how a given speaker sounds. Kinda high end, Crown makes some fantastic power amps. It took quite a while to find a CT8150 at a "respectable" price. Currently there is one available on eBay, The buy now price is really quite good. I've seen them selling for $2K or more.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crown-CT-8150-ComTech-DriveCore-8-channel-Power-Amplifier-125watts-8-/141484660209?pt=US_Other_Pro_Audio&hash=item20f12495f1

Rodgers uses these on their highest end installs. Significant that Rodgers buy these from Crown rather than build them. Even tho they are rack mounts, they run remarkable cool to the point I built the one I mentioned above into the church organ console. Even at full organ, there is no need to fan cool the CT8150 it is that efficient and runs that cool. The sound is, well, fantastic (as is the retail price). If you shop around, you can find them for less.

Rgds,
Ed

Hi Ed,

Believe me, I've been known to drool over a Crown amp in the past, and even if it's a good deal I think the wife would throw me and the organ out in the street if I spent $1500, in my smallish space I can probably get away with less power / quality as well (but I won't be going Pyle) and would still probably be better than what I have now. I had planned to purchase a 7 channel Emotiva UPA series amp just before the first of the year but came to find out right after the 1st that they no longer listed them in their line-up, so am assuming they no longer offer them. I dropped them an email today asking what's up, will see what I get for a response. I had also planned to use 6 of it's 7 channels for the front and maybe try the sub on channel 7, and then pick the best from my 2 channel amps for the rear speaker duties, but your idea to go to an 8 channel is a good one and I had considered maybe making the investment in 8 vs. 7 as well.

Marc

I'm sure you know Crown makes lesser amps which can be used to good advantage. I know this thread is about speakers, but without a good amp (either separate or in the same enclosure as the speaker) even good speakers can sound less than their potential. Crown's are very much professional gear, but they do a great job in all repects (and keep doing it).

I "rescued" a rack of (6) Crown amps that had gone thru an accident and landed in the mud along side the road. Had only time to wipe them off, esp the connections, and powered them up. They performed perfectly doing a double rock concert that same day. Kinda says it all.

Rgds,]
Ed

I can probably get away with less power / quality as well (but I won't be going Pyle) and would still probably be better than what I have now.

Speaking of Pyle, which we weren't, I bought a pair of the small Pyle (white, waterproof) speakers from Menard's when they had their 15% off (everything you could get in the bag) sale last summer. Something like $34 each for our outside deck. Kinda surprised, they actually (for their size) sound quite good. Similar in size to what is referred to as a book shelf type. Spec says you can drive 100 or so watts into them. This is not a recommendation, but if you are at your local Menard's someday, give a listen. There is a working demol display of all the Pyle stuff in the electrical dept.

Haven't played live organ into them, but some CD's and Pipe Dreams came thru, at least you could tell it was an organ that was playing.

Rgds,
Ed

Ha! Yeah, I hit Menards at least 2x a week, I've walked past the Pyle display about a million times, will have to check it out! Actually, I have a new pair of Polks still in the box about 2 months now awaiting a new amp. I did get a response from Emotiva, the UPA series they discontinued was what they called "end of life" product and have new multi-channel amps (at lower prices than their top of the line stuff) that are due to be out in a month or two, hopefully about the same time as that new MDA Skinner!

And now back to our regularly scheduled program: Organ speakers.......

Marc

Just something to consider that I don't believe has been mentioned...the age of the speakers does make a difference. Generally, I would agree that while other systems my be better suited to HW, a home theater setup can work just fine, when used at normal volume. Most home theatre systems use crossover circuits that send certain frquency ranges to appropriate speakers, which a primary consideration for HW given the frequency range of most pipe organs (and their respective sample sets). That being said, in comparison to watching TV or movies, even CD audio, a typical HW player is likely to demand more of their audio system in terms of RMS, or sustained wattage (electrical current draw) to their speakers. If your home audio system is pretty old, its amp and the speaker magnets/cones may no longer be up to the task. This is particularly true for speakers using paper cones. In that case, you might want leave your home theatre system where it is, and try out a couple of other options to see what you think. Find a store with a good return policy, try a couple of different systems with your setup, and hear for yourself what works best. If nothing else, this way could at least hear what a system comparable to your current TV surround system would sound like, and you wouldn't
have to tear apart your house in the process.

If your home audio system is pretty old, its amp and the speaker magnets/cones may no longer be up to the task. This is particularly true for speakers using paper cones.

Then, too, esp for large diameter sub speakers, the surrounds do age, Sometimes when they deteriorate they can cause rubbing of the voice coil on the magnet as well. After repairing/replacing the surround, I've found rotating the vertically mounted bass speaker 180 degrees helps.

Rgds,
Ed

Good points! Believe it or not, even with an HW set-up there is actually some maintenance involved! The surrounds and / or rubber foam around large speaker cones succumbs to gravity over time and the due to the weight of the cone can cause the miss-alignment of the cone causing the voice coil to get to the point of rubbing against the magnet, over time rendering your $1000 + sub junk. Good practice to rotate the speaker every 6 months or so to be safe.

If Neumie hasn't already read this (and probably has), this could also give some guidance as it's not just about what makes a good organ speaker, but has very much to do with how things are set up >> viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13910

Marc

If Neumie hasn't already read this (and probably has), this could also give some guidance as it's not just about what makes a good organ speaker, but has very much to do with how things are set up >> viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13910

I read all ... and I obey.

Thank you for all the instruction, guys. Very helpful. I've already started the process of moving the 5.1 to the organ room.

-N

I read all ... and I obey.

Thank you for all the instruction, guys. Very helpful. I've already started the process of moving the 5.1 to the organ room.

-N

"I obey" Ha! Please let us know how it works and what you think of the sound once you get it up and running.

Marc

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13886

Hmmm. I just came across this dated thread and it never really occurred to me that despite the fact that I have a 5.1 surround stereo, it's not as easy as that to get multi-channel audio - as most 5.1 receivers don't have six distinct inputs. They just have stereo RCA-ins and then the receiver breaks up the audio to different speakers using Dolby technology. Of course, HW doesn't use that.

There are ports back there I don't understand yet ... HDMI (I don't watch television, so I don't know anything about it or if this can be used for multi-channel audio), optical digital in, universal port (which looks like an 80's 20-pin type jack, haven't used anything like that in a long time). Somehow I suspect none of these are multi-channel inputs.

Man, so much to learn just to hook up a stereo and get multi-channel organ going. Seems though, ultimately, unless a fellow buys a multi-channel amp, he's going to be listening to HW in simple stereo, no?

Neumie,

When I have more time later, I'm going to take on the challenge of providing a very basic, nuts-and-bolts description of audio concepts as they apply to a Hauptwerk (or any electronic organ, for that matter) installation.

But in response to your most recent question, you have identified one of the potential challenges with using an A/V (audio/video) home entertainment setup for Hauptwerk.

My home A/V system (NAD) has various input options for the audio portion of the signal, including coaxial (RCA-type plug) and optical digital, discrete (multi-channel, RCA-type plug) analog, HDMI (carries both the video and digital audio signal) and plain old-fashioned stereo (RCA-type plug) analog. However, the only one of those options that could be used for a surround-sound Hauptwerk setup from a multi-channel computer audio interface would be the discrete multi-channel analog inputs. Everything else, as you so aptly noted, requires a decoder, whether Dolby 5.1, DTS, or similar.

Now there are computer audio interfaces (either built-in or external) that produce the necessary connections to work with a digital surround-sound A/V system. However, those tend to be consumer level sound cards that are more designed for computer games and listening to produced music via CD, MP3 files, and the like. Those generally do not have the higher quality specifications that many of us value for bringing out the best in a Hauptwerk setup. And that is a topic for another post.