Not Understanding Pitch/Tuning

Good Morning.

I have read posts regarding pitch/tuning adjustments and am a bit confused and seek guidance. Member has mentioned when using Reaper he adjusted pitch/tuning by 145 cents. I am doing this because in order to make my audio interface (gigaport HD) with Skinner sample set which is done at 48hz my gigaport only allows for 6 channels not the full 8 and I desire the full 8. The member accomplished this by locking he gigaport at 44 and running Skinner thru reaper and thus having access to all 8 channels and then adjusted pitch/tuning up 145 to compensate. After going thru the modification windows in HW -- pitch -- I could adjust it up 45 but where is the 1 coming from?

This is probably a dumb question but I would love to expand my understanding of pitch/tuning adjustments and would appreciate any advice you might give. Hindsight is clearly a benefit here -- as when I decided on the gigaport I didn't realize the limitation of 48hz sample set to only 6 channels. Oh well -- live, spend and learn lol.

I wanted to use the M-Audio 1010LT but no PCI slots only PCIe slots on my machine. Otherwise I seem to be satisfied with the gigaport tho am tempted to keep searching for a larger audio interface when the budget allows -- keeping my eye on ebay for a deal on something used and affordable but in the meantime would like to try adjusting pitch as a "get by" work-around. Have been having significant difficulty especially with pedal ranks and routing but am managing to get an "okay" response there by pipe routing and mixdowns. Some of this problem i think would be helped if i could adjust pedal stops individually but for example the 16 Bourd also adjusts the Gadeck 8 and I'd be happier if I could adjust the Gad stop only -- in fact -- each stop individually not as a group. If I am missing how that can be done please point it out to me!

A better sub as well is on the bucket list but one must be constrained by budget often and make-do's til replacement is a must at the moment.

Thanks in advance for any insight into pitch adjustment would be helpful.

Tom

If, as is the case with the Bourdon and Gedackt, the two stops are really part of one rank of pipes then you can't adjust each stop separately. That's just the result of the organ builder's choice to get two stops from one rank rather than having separate pipes for each stop.

Have had some thoughts since original post and perhaps I am looking at this incorrectly. What I am trying to accomplish would be to get the 8' Ged stop to sound on my B2031 speakers but the low end (Bourd) sounding at the sub. Could this be accomplished thru routing all pedal stops to Main output and the applying a bass split function which would send the low end to the Sub output? I am aware of base split but not sure it would then apply the Bourd to the sub and the Ged to the main or what might happen. Sorry for being lengthy here but perhaps I should explain my current routing scheme and see if perhaps I am just screwing things up there and have incorrectly routed things. Please excuse the length and bare with me -- the experience of seasoned HW users here has been very helpful with other items i thought i understood but obviously didn't! lol.

Currently am set up as follows:
4 B2031A Monitors
2 JBL Tower Speakers connected to Sherwood Amp
1 not so great subwoofer (Sony)

Audio Output Groups:
Main
Pedal

HW 1/2 L&R (Stereo) to gigaport analog output Jacks 1 & 2 connected to two B2031A monitors
HW 3/4 L&R (Stereo) to gigaport analog output Jacks 3 & 4 connected to two B2031A Monitors
HW 5/6 L&R (Stereo) to gigaport analog output jacks 5 & 6 connected to Sherwood Amp
HW 7 (Mono) to gigaport analog output jack 7 connected to sub

Pipe Routing: All Ranks Main Output with HW 5/6/JBL/Sherwood as a mixdown of HW 1/2 and 3/4

Pedal Ranks Routed as follows:
Octave 8 (ContraBase16 + SuperOctave 4) -- Main AO Group
Open Diapason16 -- Pedal AO Group
Bourdun16 (Untersatz32 + Gedeckt8) -- Pedal AO Group
Trombone16 (Bombarde32 + Tromba8) -- Pedal AO Group

As side question as to routing pipes when sending the above pipes to the sub as mono, should i change the "Memory" format to mono in the "Load Adjusting pipe routing" menu or in the "Audio Output" Channel format section or which or both?

Sorry to be so lengthy but felt perhaps a full explanation of what I have done would help in gathering the information i can't seem to figure out through the experience or much more experienced users than myself. Thank you in advance for your patience and help,

Tom

[mdyde]

I have read posts regarding pitch/tuning adjustments and am a bit confused and seek guidance. Member has mentioned when using Reaper he adjusted pitch/tuning by 145 cents. I am doing this because in order to make my audio interface (gigaport HD) with Skinner sample set which is done at 48hz my gigaport only allows for 6 channels not the full 8 and I desire the full 8. The member accomplished this by locking he gigaport at 44 and running Skinner thru reaper and thus having access to all 8 channels and then adjusted pitch/tuning up 145 to compensate. After going thru the modification windows in HW -- pitch -- I could adjust it up 45 but where is the 1 coming from?

Hello Tom,

You can actually adjust the pitch for the organ as a whole using the 'fine-tune cents' adjustment on the Pitch large control panel ('View | Large control panels'). Although the slider only spans the range -63 to +64 cents, you can actually use the left and right arrow buttons to go beyond the ends of that range.

[mdyde]

Currently am set up as follows:
4 B2031A Monitors
2 JBL Tower Speakers connected to Sherwood Amp
1 not so great subwoofer (Sony)

Audio Output Groups:
Main
Pedal

HW 1/2 L&R (Stereo) to gigaport analog output Jacks 1 & 2 connected to two B2031A monitors
HW 3/4 L&R (Stereo) to gigaport analog output Jacks 3 & 4 connected to two B2031A Monitors
HW 5/6 L&R (Stereo) to gigaport analog output jacks 5 & 6 connected to Sherwood Amp
HW 7 (Mono) to gigaport analog output jack 7 connected to sub

Pipe Routing: All Ranks Main Output with HW 5/6/JBL/Sherwood as a mixdown of HW 1/2 and 3/4

Pedal Ranks Routed as follows:
Octave 8 (ContraBase16 + SuperOctave 4) -- Main AO Group
Open Diapason16 -- Pedal AO Group
Bourdun16 (Untersatz32 + Gedeckt8) -- Pedal AO Group
Trombone16 (Bombarde32 + Tromba8) -- Pedal AO Group

Presumably you have both of your 'HW 1/2' and 'HW 3/4' outputs in the 'main' group, and your 'HW 7' output in the 'Pedal' group (since you mention that your 'HW 5/6' output is a mix-down from HW 1/2 and HW 3/4)?

As side question as to routing pipes when sending the above pipes to the sub as mono, should i change the "Memory" format to mono in the "Load Adjusting pipe routing" menu or in the "Audio Output" Channel format section or which or both?

The channel format definitely needs to be 'mono' for the HW 7 output (since you have only one speaker -- your sub-woofer -- driven by it). Any ranks (or parts of ranks) that you route to its group will then sound in mono anyway, so the mono/stereo setting on the rank screen would be ignored in that case. Hence just set the audio output to mono for the HW 7 output, and then (to avoid potential for confusion later, in case you subsequently decide to change it) I'd suggest leaving the ranks set to the their defaults of stereo on the ranks screen.

What I am trying to accomplish would be to get the 8' Ged stop to sound on my B2031 speakers but the low end (Bourd) sounding at the sub. Could this be accomplished thru routing all pedal stops to Main output and the applying a bass split function which would send the low end to the Sub output? I am aware of base split but not sure it would then apply the Bourd to the sub and the Ged to the main or what might happen.

Yes -- you could do that, since the Bourdon and Gedackt are part of the same rank anyway, so if you split the bottom end of the rank off to your sub-woofer then that portion of the rank (whether played via the pedals or manuals) would sound through your sub-woofer.

Thanks Martin for your kind reply. I did end up routing all pedal stops to Main output and then split the low ends of the ranks down to the Sub with some success. Pedal ranks sound better under this routing scheme when I eliminate the mixdown to the Amp and JBL's as well. I still have to do significant voicing to get steady and even volume levels up the pedalboard but its certainly better than it was. I am pretty certain the quality of my sub is at issue here, not HW.

Speaking of Subs to anyone reading this post -- I would certainly welcome any recommendations you might have for a budget friendly sub ($200-$300 max) that could manage my small setup. I have read lots about subs but the wide fluctuations in price, for example, PA DJ subs quite reasonable but can they handle the "musicality" or just THUD? So anyone's thoughts on a satisfactory sub would be very appreciated.

Thanks again Martin -- your detail filled in the gaps I needed.

Tom

[mdyde]

Hello Tom,

Even Pedal/bass pipes usually have significant upper harmonics, so you're potentially losing quite a bit of realism by routing them *only* to a sub-woofer. You might be better off routing them to a full-range stereo pair that also has the sub-woofer as an aux mix-down (or drive the full-range stereo pair from your sub-woofer, if it has a stereo pass-through for that purpose).

Hello Tom,

If you connect the subwoofer on the first headphone output you have a full mix of all other outputs.

If you connect the subwoofer on the second headphone output, you send signals from channel 1 and 2 to your sub.

PCM

Thanks Again Martin! Hope not to be wearing out my welcome with my lack of audio understanding. If I am reading you correctly, I think you are suggesting that I leave the my audio outputs 1/2 and 3/4 alone which go to the (4) B2031A's, and then route the pedal stops to 5/6 (to the sub with channel format changed from mono to stereo) and connect the JBL towers to the back of the sub to handle the higher end of pedal ranks? Making any sense? I assume this would mean I would still utilize output groups of 1/2 and 3/4 Main (B2031A's Stereo), and 5/6 Pedal (Subwoofer with JBL's attached to back Stereo) with just pedal ranks routed to it, and adjust the pass-through knob on the back of the sub til frequencies hit either the sub or the jbl's being passed through?

I promise I won't ask more. In the meantime looking into a Def Tech sub which seems to be dramatically on sale for $279.00 u.s. (a 10 inch sub model 312 I think I saw).

I will now try to disappear for a bit

Thanks,

Tom

[mdyde]

Hello Tom,

Thanks Again Martin! Hope not to be wearing out my welcome with my lack of audio understanding. If I am reading you correctly, I think you are suggesting that I leave the my audio outputs 1/2 and 3/4 alone which go to the (4) B2031A's, and then route the pedal stops to 5/6 (to the sub with channel format changed from mono to stereo) and connect the JBL towers to the back of the sub to handle the higher end of pedal ranks? Making any sense? I assume this would mean I would still utilize output groups of 1/2 and 3/4 Main (B2031A's Stereo), and 5/6 Pedal (Subwoofer with JBL's attached to back Stereo) with just pedal ranks routed to it, and adjust the pass-through knob on the back of the sub til frequencies hit either the sub or the jbl's being passed through?

Yes -- that's effectively what I had in mind.

I would steer clear of "PA DJ subs". They tend to be loud but usually do not have as much bass extension as their "hi-fi" counterparts. "Thud" probably describes them quite well.

For virtual pipe organ use, the low frequency extension is the main reason for acquiring a sub.

Also, don't be too taken in by quoted low frequency points. A certain amount of marketing and creative thinking takes place!

Thanks you again Martin. I believe I have, after much experimentation, concluded that the main fault lies with my "not so good" sub. I find it is only a 70w, and it seems unable to output anything to the speakers which I did connect to the rear -- its just too weak to be of assistance. I was able, though, thanks to your expert advice, to get things manageable with routing and bass splits to get it acceptable for the time being, enough that it doesn't positively drive me nuts to play.

My plan now is to upgrade the sub and will probably be seeking advice from other members as to an adequate replacement that is affordable.

Again I appreciate immensely your patience in helping me work through all the possibilities.

My thanks to the others who have commented. I most definitely will not be looking at PA/DJ subs since I was pretty much sure that they provided more Thud and Musicality. I will start a new topic and seeks opinions with regard to sub selection from most learned members in a couple of days, and will provide the specs on the Def Tech that I did find available on sale for opinions.

Many thanks again -- this forum is such a valuable tool and chocked full of kind and experienced people.

Regards,

Tom