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Speaker diffusers?

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engrssc

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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Mar 18, 2015 9:49 am

For the "in front of me" sound, I use that Conn (fake) pipe box that sits on top of the console. Instead of it being just a single audio source, I have divided the internal 6" X 9" speakers into two groups, left and right. Feeding them separately with a mix of combined left and combined right channels. Fed by a smaller power amp, they fill in what would otherwise be a hole. The center mix is fairly soft with the side spkrs doing most of the "work".

Rgds,
Ed
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G3

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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Mar 18, 2015 9:51 am

I've often wondered what a sound bar or several of them would sound like. I use 8 speakers, up high, about 20 feet from the back of the console. In my living room, I use a Zvox sound bar beneath the TV. It truly fills the room with sound and doesn't seem to have a definitive source. Wonder how it would work on the organ. If a person connected four of them plus a sub. I'm not about to disconnect it to try...I have nowhere to set it, but wondered if anyone has tried one!?!? They don't take up much room.

George (G3)
Owner/Builder of Hammond-Hauptwerks X-66 3-manual organ.
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Mar 18, 2015 1:08 pm

Most definitely some good info and ideas shared here so far! Although I've been quite happy with my current speaker arrangement, the resulting nice sounding wide stereo image it offers and so on, I really haven't altered it in any way for a long time but of course I feel there's more I can get out of it or there's more fine tuning that can be done. What got me started thinking on this again is in the winter months when it's -20 here which is not real ideal conditions for sitting out on the deck enjoying the weather :lol: the wife and I have seen quite a number of movies as of late. My first thought was to arrange speakers along the side walls like you see in the theater but without a "true" surround signal this probably wouldn't be the most ideal of arrangements and you still have speakers pointing directly out into the room. Over the past few years I've tried speakers lined from left to right in front of me, various stacks arrangements and spacing, pointing some of them in opposing directions this way and that way, speakers at the front and to the side of me, and speakers mounted up near the ceiling pointing down at me. In all of this one thing keeps popping up in my mind. When you look at an organ, other than the occasional instrument that has those trumpets mounted on the front of the case pointing out into the room, there really are no pipes pointing directly in our face. So why then I end up asking is why would we want speakers pointing directly in our face or directly out into the room for that matter? All which seems to go against the grain. I've pondered tilting the speakers back at an angle, building boxes as mentioned here that house speakers pointing in a variety of directions and so on, but I'd hate to put all that time into things and not get the results I hope to and wonder if there's a more simple solution to all of this.

For me (and for everyone else here I would suspect) the most pointed part of the sound are the highs, which comes out more direct like a laser beam and focused, the rest is more spread out. So after all this thinking again I'm leaning towards coming up with a way to control the dispersion more for the tweeters than anything else and get the sound from them to be more spread out. Remember those Bose 301's from the 1970's? I think to this day Bose still offers them in some fashion. They used an adjustable louver so to speak that allowed you to kind of point or direct the highs, my idea here is kind of boiling down to the same idea. It wouldn't have to be anything overly complicated, it could be as simple as a flat piece of a certain dimension (yet to be determined) that mounts directly to the speaker under the tweeters that would cause some of its sound to bounce off this piece and off in another direction (kind of like that shop heater louver idea) or perhaps it could be a louver mounted on a simple frame that stands in front of the speaker with the louver at tweeter height and it can be adjusted up or down to reflect some of it's sound as desired. I'm thinking perhaps you could direct more of the tweeter output towards your ceiling as an example, then it also bounces off that as well instead of just coming straight out into the room. Just for reference here, my current arrangement is 8- channels, stacks of 3 speakers on each side of the console set up as high as I can get them (huge improvement there alone), one pair to the rear and subs to the rear.

Things to ponder and all part of the fun. :)

Marc
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Mar 18, 2015 2:24 pm

1961TC4ME wrote:Most definitely some good info and ideas shared here so far! Although I've been quite happy with my current speaker arrangement, the resulting nice sounding wide stereo image it offers and so on, I really haven't altered it in any way for a long time but of course I feel there's more I can get out of it or there's more fine tuning that can be done. What got me started thinking on this again is in the winter months when it's -20 here which is not real ideal conditions for sitting out on the deck enjoying the weather :lol: the wife and I have seen quite a number of movies as of late. My first thought was to arrange speakers along the side walls like you see in the theater but without a "true" surround signal this probably wouldn't be the most ideal of arrangements and you still have speakers pointing directly out into the room. Over the past few years I've tried speakers lined from left to right in front of me, various stacks arrangements and spacing, pointing some of them in opposing directions this way and that way, speakers at the front and to the side of me, and speakers mounted up near the ceiling pointing down at me. In all of this one thing keeps popping up in my mind. When you look at an organ, other than the occasional instrument that has those trumpets mounted on the front of the case pointing out into the room, there really are no pipes pointing directly in our face. So why then I end up asking is why would we want speakers pointing directly in our face or directly out into the room for that matter? All which seems to go against the grain. I've pondered tilting the speakers back at an angle, building boxes as mentioned here that house speakers pointing in a variety of directions and so on, but I'd hate to put all that time into things and not get the results I hope to and wonder if there's a more simple solution to all of this.


I would disagree just a touch... While pipes certainly aren't "in your face" (save some low brustwerks or practice organs) in the strictest sense, they do most definitely speak directly into the room from any open chambers. They just also speak in all the other directions as well. We are limited by speaker technology so you have to account for that, but ultimately, a forward facing speaker is doing the lion's share of what we are actually hearing from a pipe in real life. I could be wrong, but I do believe that to be the case.

Out of curiosity, how did you like having the speakers up and pointed down? Have you tried having the speakers simply pointed up at the ceiling?
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Mar 18, 2015 3:15 pm

Romanos wrote:I would disagree just a touch... While pipes certainly aren't "in your face" (save some low brustwerks or practice organs) in the strictest sense, they do most definitely speak directly into the room from any open chambers. They just also speak in all the other directions as well. We are limited by speaker technology so you have to account for that, but ultimately, a forward facing speaker is doing the lion's share of what we are actually hearing from a pipe in real life. I could be wrong, but I do believe that to be the case.

Out of curiosity, how did you like having the speakers up and pointed down? Have you tried having the speakers simply pointed up at the ceiling?


I kid you not, I've tried just about every arrangement imaginable and just about even tried playing upside down on my head. :lol: Honestly I didn't care for the speakers up at the top of the wall at the ceiling pointing down at me and was probably one of the arrangements I changed almost immediately after I heard it. Sounded very "detached" would be my best description.

The best sounding arrangement I've come up with to date is stacking them vertically and having the stacks way off the floor so the lowest driver in the stack is at head height when I'm seated at the console, the stacks are about 6' apart, one on each side of the console. Speakers pointed at the ceiling killed the sound too much, so also not good. I've found it's not just speaker placement but how you route the audio / set up your groups which has a rather profound effect on the sound as well though.

I agree too that the pipes do in effect speak fairly directly into the room, but the sound has more time to mix, especially in a large room setting. I use and prefer wet sets so am trying to perfect the cathedral illusion. I'm getting very good results overall, but sometimes find the high pitched notes a bit offensive in their more direct in your face / less realistic sounding nature and just want to break them up some or make them less focused and be able to have more control on their focus is the main idea here I guess.

Marc
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Mar 18, 2015 4:20 pm

Most Pipe organs produce their delightful sounds,
from at least two large areas, say each roughly more than 100 square feet of per pipe chamber opening !
I would think that since the low pitches are mostly non directional that we can not worry too much about them.

That said the middle and higher pitches should be reproduced over at least a 10' x 10 Square foot area from each side of the console.
"If I did not have to keep my Wife-y happy","which I do" ! :D
I would assemble "two large panels" with a number of speakers
carefully laid out on them, in order to get as large a source of even sound production as possible from them ! :roll:

I will try removing the Tweeters from a few of my B2031A's,
and placing them on top of their cabinets, in order to see if I get sufficient dispersion,
for a mod to be worth doing, I will report the findings here !
(I think it's worth a try.)

"Any Ideas from fellow Hauptwerkers" as to how to get high quality even sound production,
from say two,100 square foot areas, "without piling twenty or thirty speakers per side" ? ? ?
RSVP, Mel---TheOrganDoc---
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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Jan Loosman

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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostThu Mar 19, 2015 5:23 am

I used to play with Kef R300 speakers. These speakers are excellent for Hauptwerk, very transparant sound, but also as with al forward firing speakers they sound very direct/upfront.
My solution is the use of dipolar tweeters/mid speakers. The bas speaker is direct firing but this is no problem becaus bas notes are more omnidirectional then the higher frequencies
I use the Great Heil mid/high speakers.The Heil Air Motion Transformer (AMT) uses a folded pleated Mylar Diaphragm of a mere 0.0005” thickness! Unlike a normal piston loudspeaker which excites the air by alternately pushing and pulling the diaphragm, the AMT displaces the air by alternately squeezing and expanding the pleats, moving the air at a very high velocity. Because the moving mass of the AMT is extremely low, and the magnetic structure very powerful, this combination results in extremely high acceleration yielding amazing transients. The AMT's low mass and high output allow for a unusually high combination of efficiency and bandwidth to be attained in a single loudspeaker. The AMT is a dipolar transducer, meaning like a real musical instrument, it creates as much sound to the front as it does to the rear, allowing for a more natural and musical ambiance to be heard in your listening room. The bas speakers are scanspeak and the cabinet is custom made.
I filtered the Heil speakers at 800HZ with 48db/oct filtering in the digital domain with the Nanodigi mini dsp.
Image
This is how it looks.

the sound is very spacious now with good stereo image but not upfront like the old situation.

regards Jan
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostFri Apr 03, 2015 5:19 pm

Hi Jan, that looks good....

A pity that only the rich can do all this. But nevertheless, I always admire your drive towards the ultimate sound reproduction......

In general I can go along with a lot of suggestions about this subject, but I miss a bit the fact, that we are NOT talking here about generating ouw own sounds, like the pipe-organ does, but that we are merely trying to re-transmit a RECORDING of the sound waves as they hit the microphones.
Not to mention the lot of post-processing that is being done on the samples, and the (re)-placement in the stereo field tha is being done with certain samplesets.

So that all can have much impact on the sound also. Besides, one should also take into account, the general - not so good - accoustic behaviour of our playing room, where most of the times already 1,5 meters from the speaker, the reflected sound has a greater amplitude as the direct sound form the speaker.

This suggests, that it would NOT be wise, to exaggerate the omni-dispersion of the sound too much......
A resemblance with the way the soundwaves did hit the microphones must always be there, in order to locate it.

This idea I read, of having two large planes with multi-speakers mounted, does remind me of multi-speaker experiments already in the sixtees of the former age......nice!

Greetings, ( must visit you sometime...)

Geert
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostFri Apr 03, 2015 6:18 pm

Hi Hauptwerkers,
I differ in opinion with the fact the the sound output of Hauptwerk is a reproduction, as the whole Idea is to Produce Organ Music Not playback an organ recording, and is FAR more difficult to achieve realistically, with speakers and Amp's !
From my past professional experience in tuning and repairing both Pipe, and Pro. Electronic Organs,
The broader the Sound Field, The more True the Organ will sound ! :roll:
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostFri Apr 03, 2015 6:35 pm

Yesterday I removed the Tweeters from a few of my 8 Behringer B2031A studio monitors, and temporarily put them on top of their cabinets, facing upward, when I played the brighter sounds on the organ, it was quite evident that these sounds are being reflected and diffused by the walls behind the speakers. If your Speaker cabinets are above your Music Rack the effect of this mod would not be necessary.
My 8 speakers are lined up on the floor with 4 on each side !
I would place the speakers above head height, BUT if I did,
The Organ an I, would get the heave Ho, And I do love my other half ! :roll: Mel
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostFri Apr 03, 2015 10:25 pm

Quite remarkable what a little speaker positioning by itself can do. I took my two bookshelf sized Polks which were sitting side by side on top of my towers and layed them on their sides on top of each other on the towers with their tweeters oriented on the outside of each stack and the difference was amazing. Really smoothed out the sound even further and is now even more spacious sounding.

Marc
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostSat Apr 04, 2015 6:12 pm

Hello Geert

Nice to hear from you.
The dipoles are not omnidirectional but bidirectional i think just good for Hauptwerk because the direct radiating speakers sounded to direct for in my ears for Hauptwerk use. This setup is so much better.
It would be nice to meat you again if you are planning to visit the Hague.

Regards Jan Loosman
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Apr 08, 2015 8:19 pm

I saw a photo of a famous brand sampled organ installation,
and the Speakers (Monitors) were on their on their backs lined up
against the wall along both sides of the console.

I tried that this afternoon, with my 8 Behringer B2031A's,
and WOW what a difference in realism,
as the pipe sounds are now reflecting off entire height of the walls on both sides of my console !

Definitely worth doing, if your Speakers must be on the floor !
Mel
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostWed Apr 08, 2015 10:05 pm

TheOrganDoc wrote:I saw a photo of a famous brand sampled organ installation,
and the Speakers (Monitors) were on their on their backs lined up
against the wall along both sides of the console.

I tried that this afternoon, with my 8 Behringer B2031A's,
and WOW what a difference in realism,
as the pipe sounds are now reflecting off entire height of the walls on both sides of my console !

Definitely worth doing, if your Speakers must be on the floor !
Mel



I've been thinking about pointing mine up recently. I think you just gave me the impetus to try it. (Although I think it will probably wait until we move in a few weeks.)
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Re: Speaker diffusers?

PostThu Apr 09, 2015 9:57 am

I used to face the speakers towards the back wall, in attempt to diffuse the sound; however; I found that having the speakers higher off the ground and facing the organist, much more exciting; all three divisions have 12 speakers each and set-up with tone matching two. BTW the experimentation never stops, that is the fun of owning your own VTPO.
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