It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:14 am


Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Neumie

Member

  • Posts: 124
  • Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:40 pm

Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostThu Jun 18, 2015 3:58 pm

I know nothing about speakers or quality audio. Been a $200 stereo man all my life.

I've been shopping better speakers for over a year, nothing more than A/B listening tests in the store. Still don't know anything about them. I'm looking to create an exceptional audio system for my digital audio ... and of course I also want Hauptwerk to sound close to as awesome as it can in a 10x20 room that functions as my studio.

I'm 90% certain I've settled on the Martin Logan 60XT floor standing speakers. I'm imagining one of these on the floor on either side of my organ.

Image

Judging from the exceptional sound in the listening room at the store where I heard these, I don't need a sub for listening to recorded music.

But can anyone with Hauptwerk experience say whether or not a subwoofer would revolutionize these things while playing the organ? Just a modest improvement? Barely even noticeable? (Again, in a 10x20 converted bedroom - maybe eventually a 15x30 living room.)

-Neumie


SPECIFICATIONS
Frequency Response
35–25,000 Hz ± 3 dB

Dispersion
80° x 30°

High Frequency Driver
1.25” x 2.4” (3.2cm x 6.1cm)
Folded Motion XT Transducer with 4.5” x 2.75”
(11.4cm x 7cm) diaphragm.

Mid Frequency Transducer
6-1/2” (16.5cm) aluminum cone with cast polymer
basket. Sealed chamber format. Rigid structured dust
cap to reduce cone break-up modes.

Low Frequency Transducer
Two 8” (20.3cm) aluminum cone with cast
aluminum basket. Non-resonant asymmetrical
chamber format. Rigid structured dust cap to reduce
cone break-up modes.

Sensitivity
94 dB @ 2.83 volts/meter

Impedance
4 Ohms. Compatible with 4, 6,
or 8 Ohm rated amplifiers.

Recommended Amplifier Power
20 – 400 watts

Crossover Frequency
400 & 2,200 Hz

Cabinet
Ported

Components
Custom air core coil and low DCR steel laminate
inductors. Polypropylene film capacitors in series and
low DF electrolytic capacitors in parallel. Tweeter
thermal/current protection.

Inputs
Custom 5-way bi-wire tool-less binding posts

Weight
66 lbs. (30 kg)

Dimensions
48” x 11.4” x 14.4”
(121.8cm x 29cm x 36.6cm)
Offline
User avatar

telemanr

Member

  • Posts: 1576
  • Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:18 pm
  • Location: Brampton, ON, Canada

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostThu Jun 18, 2015 7:06 pm

I would say a subwoofer would certainly help with 16' stops which go down to 32Hz.
I have a sub which has has published specs down to 20Hz and it does a fair job of :D most of the 32' stops lower octave which need 16Hz for the lowest note.
Your speakers will be rolling off the sound even before the 35Hz mentioned so the bottom and "heft" of the lower octave pedal notes will be somewhat lacking.
Just my opinion.
Rob Enns
Offline

1961TC4ME

Member

  • Posts: 3144
  • Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:45 pm
  • Location: Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostThu Jun 18, 2015 8:29 pm

I'll second that opinion and say those speakers will give very satisfying results by themselves, but two things that will help would be a good sub to bolster the sound and also reach those very low / lowest notes satisfactorily. Also, I wouldn't place them right on the floor on each side of the console. Get them up off the floor at least 2 feet with 3 feet being even better and if you can also get them off the back corners of the console so you are more out in front of them and you will be much happier with the results.

Marc
Offline
User avatar

RichardW

Member

  • Posts: 899
  • Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:16 am
  • Location: UK

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostFri Jun 19, 2015 6:32 am

I am going to be contrarian here.

Those speakers will adequately cover all of the organ's range if you have no pipes larger than 16'. They will also cover every frequency from a 32' pipe apart from the bottom octave on the pedals. They will actually cover every harmonic of a 32' pipe in the bottom octave apart from the fundamental.

If you buy a subwoofer you will probably not be able afford one that adds another octave to your suggested speakers. So you will be spending money out of all proportion to the benefits.

However, as you can see here, some people place enormous store on that bottom octave.

My advice would be to try out the speakers and if you find that there is a huge hole at the bottom of the spectrum then at some future date consider adding a sub.

I wanted small speakers at eye level so I bought some which only go down to about 55 Hz. These do benefit from a sub.
Richard
Offline

1961TC4ME

Member

  • Posts: 3144
  • Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:45 pm
  • Location: Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostFri Jun 19, 2015 9:57 am

Will also agree with Richard. :) As I mention, those speakers should give very satisfying results and I probably should have gone a step further and also mention that the sub would need to be a 'considerable' unit capable of getting way down there which = $$$. :shock: You probably won't see much of any benefit from a 'run of the mill' $300 sub, and unless you're looking to drop some serious change I'd probably just go with the speakers for starters as well and see what you think, looking them over, they should sound really nice.

Marc
Offline

Neumie

Member

  • Posts: 124
  • Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:40 pm

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostFri Jun 19, 2015 3:53 pm

So many knowledgeable replies. Holy cow, thank you guys!

Marc, you even answered my next question, which was whether or not my cheapie Onkyo 8" sub (which came with a $400 5.1 all-in-one kit) would do the job. I don't understand audio specs, but I'm gathering it would not.

But reading between the lines of all of your posts, I'm hearing that for an average joe practicing his HW at home, these speakers without a sub are abundantly adequate.


When Richard writes, "Those speakers will adequately cover all of the organ's range if you have no pipes larger than 16'. They will also cover every frequency from a 32' pipe apart from the bottom octave on the pedals," what will it sound like to have speakers that do not cover that range? Certainly the speakers would not be silent when playing in that range, would they? I assume those 16'-plus pipes and the bottom octave of a 32' pipe that Richard writes about would still be completely audible and adequate for practice and home performance, just not bone-rattling impressive?

Is that correct?
Offline
User avatar

RichardW

Member

  • Posts: 899
  • Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:16 am
  • Location: UK

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostFri Jun 19, 2015 6:39 pm

Neumie,

Sound is a very personal thing. However, I would say that your speakers will do an excellent job of organ reproduction. When the spec says that it has a frequency response from 35 Hz that does not mean that at 34 Hz you get nothing. The roll off is gradual.

Unless you are hypersensitive to bass frequencies I think you will find no problem with your speaker's frequency range. The harmonics that make organ pipes sound different from each other are the upper ones and all those will be present and correct.

In any event, listen to them and get used to the sound then if you feel you need more bass then, as I said before, you can add one later. I was happy with the bass response of my previous speakers and they were nowhere near as good as yours.
Richard
Offline

1961TC4ME

Member

  • Posts: 3144
  • Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:45 pm
  • Location: Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostFri Jun 19, 2015 6:58 pm

Yep, your Onkyo isn't going to help the cause, in fact the speakers you're looking at may actually outperform the Onkyo in a 'how low can you go' contest and sound better in the process. If you've ever been to a larger church or cathedral that houses a large instrument boasting 32' stops, you more so feel those very low notes than you actually hear them, that low shaking rumble you feel in your chest or in things shaking, that's the lower 16's and 32's doing their business. At home when your speakers or sub runs out of gas, basically you'll hear a rattle or some sort of garbled noise, but that shake won't be there, just more so something that doesn't sound too musical. This brings up an entirely different debate that has been very well covered here in this forum to say the least, but I'd plan on plunking down at least a grand or more even for a conservatively built DIY sub that will truly reach those very bottom notes. Yes, for average Joe playing at home, I think you will be very well satisfied with those speakers alone. 8)

Marc
Offline

Neumie

Member

  • Posts: 124
  • Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:40 pm

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostFri Jun 19, 2015 8:22 pm

1961TC4ME wrote: At home when your speakers or sub runs out of gas, basically you'll hear a rattle or some sort of garbled noise, but that shake won't be there, just more so something that doesn't sound too musical.


Is this literally true? That doesn't sound too appetizing.

Is this the same experience the rest of you have when you're playing heavy-pedal organ through speakers that don't have much bottom? I know when I listen to recorded music on cheap speakers, the sound is obviously thinner, but there is nothing I would describe as a rattle or garbled noise. The fullness evaporates, but there is no intrusive distortion or whatever, unless I'm overpowering the speakers.

Sorry to ask so many naive questions. Not much experience with speakers, I guess.
Offline

1961TC4ME

Member

  • Posts: 3144
  • Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:45 pm
  • Location: Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostFri Jun 19, 2015 10:03 pm

I should clarify, it's not like your speakers or sub not being able to produce the lowest notes is going to totally mess up your overall sound. It will be fine, but if you were to play the very lowest pedal notes by themselves, if your speakers can't get there you're basically going to hear kind of a rumbling sound but it isn't going to be an accurate sound. You'll be fine. :)

Marc
Offline

TomBentley

Member

  • Posts: 266
  • Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:11 pm
  • Location: Addison, New York

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostSat Jun 20, 2015 6:40 am

Just from my novice perspective, I still haven't settled on a sub, but I do know that what I get with my cheapo sub in that last octave down on a 32' is something not really akin to a rumble, but more like flapping trousers in a strong wind or beating wings, and on some notes is downright painful sounding. Just m 2 cents. Was going to go for a Def Tech Super Cube III but unfortunately a problem arose during shipping, so I remain on the hunt! In the meantime, I just don't pull a 32 unless I am headed farther up the pedalboard .... actually been trying to think of a work around to move Octave 2 down but I know that sounds insane :roll: I will admit in my HW experience I have enjoyed every moment -- but finding a sub has been the most taxing and has robbed me of much sleep. I certainly don't blame HW -- HW and Martin and Brett are truly amazing -- but one also has to realize that it is really difficult to shove a cathedral into the family room!

Tom
Offline

1961TC4ME

Member

  • Posts: 3144
  • Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:45 pm
  • Location: Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostSat Jun 20, 2015 8:07 am

Yeah, the sound of trousers flapping in a strong wind on the clothes line would be a good description the sound of a sub makes that has reached its limit! :lol: Yes, very tough getting that cathedral crammed in my 12x12 space, but we're getting there!

Marc
Offline
User avatar

telemanr

Member

  • Posts: 1576
  • Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:18 pm
  • Location: Brampton, ON, Canada

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostSat Jun 20, 2015 8:35 am

Well there's no trouser flapping with my BX10. Vast improvement in the lowest octave over my previous sub. Solid heft to the sound.
Rob Enns
Offline

TomBentley

Member

  • Posts: 266
  • Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:11 pm
  • Location: Addison, New York

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostSat Jun 20, 2015 8:57 am

Hey Rob. I researched that a bit yesterday and got confused between BX10 and SBX10 and a little concerned that it's a 10" driver vs. 12" but if you are having good results I am very very tempted to give it a try. Seems 399 was best price I could find.

Tom
Offline
User avatar

telemanr

Member

  • Posts: 1576
  • Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:18 pm
  • Location: Brampton, ON, Canada

Re: Do I need a subwoofer with these speakers?

PostSat Jun 20, 2015 9:13 am

I'm not sure of the difference. But I'm happy with what I got. Especially for the price.
Rob Enns
Next

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests