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What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

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DanF

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What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostMon Aug 24, 2015 9:12 pm

Obviously this is a very broad question, but what does it take / cost to reproduce the low frequencies of the pipe organ for home playing and enjoyment? I am completely new to this, so please forgive my lack of knowledge here.

Speaking of digital reproduction of 32' ranks, a local 42 rank instrument has three digital 32' stops. The ophicleide sounds ridiculous. But that is probably a very expensive audio system.
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jkinkennon

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostMon Aug 24, 2015 10:17 pm

I've been looking at http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.html and am considering one of the sealed enclosure 15" driver models. We're talking about weights of nearly 200 lbs for some models but I think that's the nature of what it takes to do the job right.

You'll get a ton of advice on this topic I'd think. One of the considerations is that a sub that does an honest job down to 30 hz or so will do a nice imitation of the real thing for 32' stops that are very reedy such as a basoon or the like. If you want the actual 16Hz fundamental then something like servo control may be needed.

I'd be curious to know if anyone has first hand experience with the Rythmik line of subs.
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NickNelson

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostTue Aug 25, 2015 12:27 am

Colin Pykett is worth a read on this matter ( http://www.pykett.org.uk/vlf_repro.htm) for some theoretical perspectives. I've long wanted to try the 'spare room' approach myself.

Nick
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engrssc

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostTue Aug 25, 2015 2:22 am

A. big and very important part of the equation is the size of the room is a widely proclaimed "feature". The House Wrecker http://www.decware.com/newsite/HWK15.html (which is free standing), with an adequate amplifier powering it will do a reasonably good job providing that the room is big enough to "contain" such low frequencies. In my case, I'm using using 4 - 15" speakers which if you follow Mr Pykett, increases the effective (radiating) size four fold as compared to a single speaker. While I'm now using a 400 watt amp (to drive it, the amp is barely "on". BTW, I had to wire the drivers (speakers) series/parallel to which I found is way too big) match the output impedance of the power amp. I had this amp and it does provide a 2 ohm output. Using 14 gauge wire between the speakers and the P/A. Phasing, of course, must be correct. All speaker cones, including those mounted upside down must move in unison.

I, too, have been thinking in terms of the "room next to the music room" approach which in my case is a garage. This presents its own set of issues obviously. So far, the "compromise" has been a House Wrecker which isn't widely excepted by my wife. Question, how do you hide a big box like that?

Rgds,
Ed
Last edited by engrssc on Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dhm

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostTue Aug 25, 2015 3:31 am

If you're talking about home use rather than church, then this one takes a lot of beating:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/sbx10#.Vdwmxvm6fcs
It goes down to 20Hz and retails in UK for around GB£250. Lots of our customers use it.
The Presonus Tremblor 10 also does 20Hz and sells for under GB£300, but we haven't tested this one yet.
Douglas Henn-Macrae
Authorized Hauptwerk Reseller
http://www.midi-organs.eu
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1961TC4ME

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostTue Aug 25, 2015 9:45 am

I know over the past few years there's been a lot of people recommending the Definitive Technology Super Cube subs. Cost wise I think it's pretty safe to say no matter the approach (home built or store bought), it's going to be probably in the neighborhood of $1000-$1500 minimum to get down in the very low range and actually reproduce it accurately. I too have pondered the extra room as a sub enclosure of sorts idea and it definitely has it's merits. I do have a 6' x 10' closet at the back of my office I could try using, might turn the bathtub upstairs into a Jacuzzi when it's in use though. :mrgreen: Ed has mentioned the Housewrecker in the past and if a person is handy and has wood working tools that would be another option but I'd probably be upping the amp to at least 1000 watts.

Marc
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Lauwerk

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostTue Aug 25, 2015 12:25 pm

I respect the fact that there are many valid approaches and opinions on this subject. However, I can directly reply to DanF and, particularly, jkinkennon that I am very pleased with the pair of Rythmik F15HP subwoofers that I acquired last year. (I estimate the immediate space that they serve to be 11,500 cubic feet, hence "pair.") I perceive that the controlled accuracy of sealed subs, especially in a direct servo design, allows their "punch" to be more meaningful.

I have had very little experience playing actual pipe organs. With accurate subwoofers (integrated via Dirac processing) and high quality sample sets, I have learned some things about handling and enjoying organs that are relatively bottom-heavy or -light. For example, the accuracy of the Rythmik subs retains the low-frequency "presence" of the relatively light, sole 16' pedal flues of Steinkirchen or Melcer even in full ensembles without changing the fact that they are light. Heavier bottom ends such as Krzeszow, Brasov, Doesburg, Waltershausen, Dortmund, or Bonn-Beuel are wonderfully full of stop character and output, easily down to 32'. I do not know what to expect in-the-flesh from a 64' stop, but the Rythmiks do not seem to struggle with what Gravissimo can give them to do. And, yes, even with the Rythmiks located a few feet behind the console (i.e., console between me and them), I can feel the floor vibrate and even my pantlegs rustle at times.

They are heavy.
Don Vlazny
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1961TC4ME

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostTue Aug 25, 2015 3:37 pm

One thing I notice when it comes to 32' stops is people seem to expect to actually hear the very lowest notes but you really don't. I too have little real pipe organ experience but had the chance to hear the very lowest notes of a real 32' by itself from the Skinner of our local Cathedral here some years back. Imagine opening and closing a door back and forth without it hitting the frame in a tightly sealed room, all you feel is the low wind pulsation, that's about all you really hear / feel. I suppose once that sound gets going out in the large space of the room there may be a slight audible sound and more of a shaking, but up in the choir loft close to the pipes you only felt a fairly faint flutter of wind pulsating, I had expected much more so it was actually pretty surprising. If a given sub can do what I experienced, then you've got something. 8)

Marc
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engrssc

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostTue Aug 25, 2015 5:13 pm

BTW, every note (frequency) has harmonics, of course, including those from 32 ft stops. Those upper harmonics, given the harmonic content of a pipe, can be heard. Being close enough to the air flow of real (low) pipes on a warm day can assist in keeping the organist cool esp in some non air conditioned church balconies. :roll: :oops:

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostWed Aug 26, 2015 1:00 pm

It's true that a 32 ft flue pipe at low C will resonate at a frequency of about 16 Hz, well below what ANYONE can actually HEAR. They are sensed viscerally through the liquids in the body being pounded at those 16 or so cycles per second sound waves!!!

While it is difficult to reproduce with speakers, some systems that I have looked into that have promise (besides said 'housewrecker' which utilizes isobaric design) were 'transmission line' which acts like an organ pipe, 'Tapped horn' which is very similar, and 'Infinite Baffle' in which the speaker(s) is placed in a wall, ceiling or floor and utilize the wall cavity, adjoining room, attic, basement, etc, for a resonating chamber. All of these designs are reported to extend the bass response when properly designed and executed. They are also reported to be more musical than the "Thump Machines" that are so common. Biggest problem is that they have to be built. I know of none that are ready-made. :cry:

One promising design that I saw utilized a 2 or 3 cubic foot box, which had 2 high efficiency 10 or 12 inch woofers mounted at opposite ends facing the same direction (sort of an isobaric arrangement), with a 12 inch wide, 56 inch long piece of plastic sewer pipe sticking out of a hole in the top. If I recall, the builder claimed fast response and frequencies down to 17 or 18 Hz. He painted the whole thing black, but the pipe look was really something!

Just a little something else for your consideration,
~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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amun

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostWed Aug 26, 2015 1:53 pm

PSE find more low frequency reproducing systems here:

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http ... EsCh3O2g9P

BTW:
"Trinity Church, Wall Street recently installed a set of woofers in a specially sealed-off area of the church. The woofers imitate the sound of the lowest pipes of an organ going down to 16 Hertz." (Wikipedia, Rotary woofer,)

amun :wink:
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engrssc

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostWed Aug 26, 2015 3:01 pm

Anything on either side of "normal" has it's own share of difficulties. It amounts to how much and how far one wants to go to make "it" happen. :o Reproducing low frequency audio is no exception. :roll:

A friend referred often to the quote that the difficult he could do right away while the impossible took a little longer.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostWed Sep 30, 2015 10:57 pm

I owe a big Thank You to Don Vlazny for confirming my thoughts about the Rhythmic Audio subwoofers. This afternoon I finished building the equivalent to the sealed box F15HP subs that he has. It's possible to save a significant amount by doing your own woodworking, but the price is still substantial and freight charges are large as just the amp and driver weighed in at 52 lbs prior to adding 60 or 70 lbs of MDF. With the servo techniques it's not possible to shop for equivalent components off the shelf so far as I know.

This sub is everything that Don said. It's totally happy to produce the fundamental at 16 Hz and has been a thrill to try out this evening. I've heard a lot of subs and this one truly delivers. Prices are on the Rythmik Audio site but don't forget to allow for freight!

I'm crossing the sub over to the 6 Behringer 3031A monitors at 80 Hz though I'd originally intended to go with 50 Hz. I roll off the response to the monitors in Reaper using ReaEQ and the sub has it's own controls to set the crossover freq. The house has an open floor plan so there is space to develop the low tones.
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toplayer2

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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostFri Oct 02, 2015 11:35 am

In a quest to reproduce 32' low C, I purchased a DefTec Trinity. VERY heavy beast by the way. Turns out I was on a fool's errand because my listening room was not nearly large enough to allow 16 Hz wavelengths. I sold the DefTec and am doing fine with a 12" Velodyne. I just leave the 32' stops off.

Joe Hardy
Paramount Organ Works
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Re: What systems (and cost) to reproduce low frequencies?

PostFri Oct 02, 2015 12:10 pm

This Rhythmic Audio sub has been an eye opener in several respects. First, I'm fascinated by the time it takes, most of a second perhaps, to develop the lowest tones. You really get a sense of setting the resonances of the room/house in motion. Second, I'm surprised that it's not easy to identify the point between hearing and feeling the sound. If I run a relatively pure 32 foot stop down the scale to low C there's not a point along the scale where I sense the loss of hearing and the beginning of feeling the vibrations. It happens I guess but subjectively it feels like I'm still hearing the note. Interesting. Third, this sub sounds better across the bass spectrum that the old 15" sub which I hope is not just an expectation bias, ha, ha! Wish I could A/B the two side by side and perhaps I can do that as I eventually plan to replace a humming amp in the first sub and assign it to home theater use.

At this point I'm wanting to run the Room EQ Wizard package to see what it indicates, but that will have to wait for at least another week as I have pressing projects in the garage that need to get out the door. Joe's post got me thinking that I can live with or without the lowest 32' notes. It's the improvement for the 16' stops that is amazing. More clarity and less upper bass heaviness.
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