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Rear channels for non-surround organs

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ludu

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Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostSun Nov 29, 2015 6:16 pm

Hello All,
I am wondering how I could simulate a surround effect with my 2 rear speakers when I play an organ without 2 rear channels. Of course, I can load the organ dry and use reaper or an external reverb like Lexicon MX-400, but isn't there another tip to have this effect? What's your experience about this question?
Luc
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James

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostSun Nov 29, 2015 7:05 pm

I too would be interested in knowing how other people solve using their rear speakers when playing non surround samplesets. I would like a way of using the rear speakers without having to plug or unplug cables or do some add on software manipulation. It seems unfortunate that we can not somehow pick both front and rear for samplesets that have no rear ranks, when we initially install a sampleset. It would be great if I have somehow missed some very obvious answer!
James
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mdyde

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 3:32 am

James wrote:It seems unfortunate that we can not somehow pick both front and rear for samplesets that have no rear ranks, when we initially install a sampleset.


Hello James,

You could potentially route the same ranks to both the front and rear speakers simultaneously by creating an 'aux mix-down output' for the rear on Hauptwerk's 'General settings | Audio outputs' screen, then setting the logical front output to send audio to it via an aux send.

However, since things on the 'General settings' menu affect all organs equally, you might want to use a separate Hauptwerk configuration (desktop short-cut) for that.

Some audio interfaces' drivers have built-in audio mixers that can perform similarly routing/mixing functionality.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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James

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 6:07 am

Hello Martin,
Than you for your suggestion. However, using an alternate configuration of Hauptwerk of course requires restarting Hauptwerk if I switch between a non surround and surround sampleset. Also the initial setup with voicing and so forth would be a whole lot of time, considering the mistakes that I would be making and than correcting. I would also have to remember which samplesets go with which configuration. As I am in my mid seventies, I am trying to simplify such brain tasks. The possibility within Hauptwerk to chose during initial set up either front, rear, or both front and rear would be wonderful.

As an aside, let me again thank you for this wonderful software. The 10 years that I have been using Hauptwerk have been truly wonderful. It has indeed changed the course of my life, though sadly to the continuing detriment of my bank account. :wink:
James
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mdyde

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 6:24 am

Thanks very much, James.

Glad to hear it gives you so much pleasure!

James wrote:The possibility within Hauptwerk to chose during initial set up either front, rear, or both front and rear would be wonderful.


Yes -- we do have planned as a future enhancement that different sample sets (surround/stereo/etc.) be able to be routed differently, without needing recourse to the different (global) configurations.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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ludu

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 7:25 am

Indeed, an easier way to switch between surround and stereo samples should be very interesting for following versions of HW. However my first question was: how to obtain a surround effect with a stereo sample? As far as I know, the only actual way should a reverb software or an external device, requiring to cut the original acoustic completely. But and I am searching for alternative solutions using mainly the acoustic of the sample at least for the front channels, for example the whole organ sounding in the rear speaker with an additional processor (particular equalisation, additional reverb or another process). Has anyone tried this kind of experience?

I feel a frustration playing wonderful stereo organs like Salisbury with silent rear speakers. Is it a possible suggestion for HW to allow in the future a double assignment for each rank? For instance one to the front speakers with a truncated reverb (already available now) and another one with the complete reverb (a little bit stronger than the note itself) to the rear speakers?
Luc
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mdyde

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 7:37 am

ludu wrote:Is it a possible suggestion for HW to allow in the future a double assignment for each rank? For instance one to the front speakers with a truncated reverb (already available now) and another one with the complete reverb (a little bit stronger than the note itself) to the rear speakers?


Hello Luc,

I've added your notes to our existing enhancement logs regarding audio routing, so that they get considered when the time comes.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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ludu

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 7:49 am

Many thanks Martin for this message and this hope for the future.

Meanwhile, I am interested to learn if other organists have tried what I described above: the front speakers with the original acoustic and the whole organ sounding in the rear speaker with an additional processor (particular equalisation, additional reverb or another process).
Luc
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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 8:38 am

This doesn't answer your question, but I treat the front and rear speakers as one audio group (a group for each speaker model) so the ranks routed to the group sound from all around me. It works fine for Salisbury and other non-surround sets. I usually don't load rear ranks except when I want more reverb than the front ranks offer, but when I do, the rear ranks go in the same group as the front. Of course, you might care whether your console faces the organ (front) while I don't.
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ludu

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 8:48 am

Hello mnailor,
Your configuration is interesting but I suppose your front and rear speakers are identical for a good balance. In my case the rear speaker are smaller and cannot be dedicated to another function than the acoustic. I good idea should perhaps to have 4 identical speakers... Thanks for the suggestion.
Luc
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mnailor

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 10:18 am

Yes, all speakers in the same group are identical.
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 11:18 am

ludu wrote:Many thanks Martin for this message and this hope for the future.

Meanwhile, I am interested to learn if other organists have tried what I described above: the front speakers with the original acoustic and the whole organ sounding in the rear speaker with an additional processor (particular equalisation, additional reverb or another process).


I have tried what you describe using a few different approaches, both with an external reverberation unit and through something like Reaper as an example where you can add reverb, delay, etc., only to the rear channels / speakers. In fact, in theory you could truncate the entire set for the front speakers and add reverb back to the rear signals with either an external unit like a Lexicon or again using a program like Reaper.

Since I've been a big fan and user of rear speakers for a long time regardless if it's a surround set or not, I have two separate instances of HW set up, one for actual surround sets where the rear ranks are sent to the rear speakers, and another instance where the rear speakers are on 'mix-down' of the entire organ as Martin suggests. The trick with either is careful balancing of volume between the front and rear speakers, and in either surround or non-surround the rear speakers do not need to be anything special, a good pair of bookshelf speakers for the rear is all you need, they are there just for the rear reflection and are not meant to be the main sound producers, that's what the front speakers are for. Honestly in my comparisons with proper front to rear speaker volume balancing there's not a whole lot of a difference between a surround and non-surround set, and you are able to get very satisfactory results with a non-surround set using the 'mix-down' scheme and no additional reverb, delaly, etc.

Marc
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ludu

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 12:03 pm

Hello Marc,

I always have been very happy with your advices. Previously it was about Reaper, Reverberate LE and York Minster. I will try what you suggest now and will give you my impressions after few tests. Many thanks.

I suppose your tip works well with wet samples... With dry samples, do you mean an additional reverb for the rear speakers only could work too?
Luc
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 12:19 pm

ludu wrote:Hello Marc,

I always have been very happy with your advices. Previously it was about Reaper, Reverberate LE and York Minster. I will try what you suggest now and will give you my impressions after few tests. Many thanks.

I suppose your tip works well with wet samples... With dry samples, do you mean an additional reverb for the rear speakers only could work too?


Hello Ludu,

Thanks, glad to hear you've been able to make use of some of the things I have suggested! I mainly use wet samples only and honestly, if you create a mix-down to the rear speakers that's all you should really need, although a person could certainly experiment which is half the fun with Hauptwerk. 8) Yes, for dry samples you could add reverb to the rear speakers as well to see what you think. Again, I've found how you balance the volume level between the front and rear speakers is really what makes or breaks the overall sound. For the Salisbury set as an example, I would think it would sound quite glorious on it's own by simply setting up another instance of Hauptwerk and adding a mix-down of the entire organ to a set of rear speakers. I have in the past even used the mix-down method on rather dry sets as well, and there too I prefer the results over just sound coming from the front speakers only. The rear speakers really open things up and add that extra dimension to the sound.

Marc
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ludu

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Re: Rear channels for non-surround organs

PostMon Nov 30, 2015 12:25 pm

Of course, for Salisbury a mix for the rear with the original acoustic is certainly enough. But with PAB or Los Angeles (Skinner), I hope the contrast won't be too strange between the front dry and the rear wet. I will try.
Luc
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