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Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby scottherbert » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:03 am

Bravo Drew!!! So happy to see an update on my favorite thread.

~S
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:37 pm

magnaton wrote:A couple of other tips (at least to try): Lets say you decide to give 6 channels to the Swell division. Dedicate a separate Swell speaker pair for celeste & supplemental stops, "supplemental" would be those you feel would benefit from a separate channel rather than placed in the mix of the 6. The idea here is the celeste and its unison are always in separate speakers and the undulation happens in the air and not in the speaker drivers. From my experimentation, this design was an immediate, noticeable enhancement. The clarity and warmth really seemed to take hold.
Danny B.


It is my understanding that HW already forces celestes into other speakers to allow the mix to happen more naturally. I suppose the real benefit would only come in that the speakers driving the celeste ranks wouldn't also be producing other sounds at the same time (and perhaps a spatial difference as well). Regardless, I do not think that the normal algorithms ever have a pitch and its corresponding celeste coming out of the same speaker.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby mdyde » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:43 pm

Hello Romanos,

Hauptwerk doesn't actually have any means of knowing which ranks are celestes, so it doesn't treat them any differently from other ranks when distributing them around amongst multiple speakers within a group.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:58 pm

Well, there you go! lol. I stand corrected :lol:
I'm not sure where I think I read that but regardless, I'm glad for the clarification. I thought sample set makers specified which ranks weren't supposed to be routed together (when channel resources were available).
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby mdyde » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:19 pm

Hello Romanos,

The ranks' unique RankIDs (defined within the organ definition) are used as the basis for distributing the starting point, and I believe it is true that Paramount Organ Works assign their ranks with that in mind, but it could only guarantee that a celeste rank and its normally-tuned counterpart sounded from different speakers for particular numbers of speakers in a group. Hence it might actually possibly apply under certain conditions with the Paramount sample sets (if you follow their specific audio routing recommendations).
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:29 pm

magnaton wrote:
Again this is for my setup in my 27 X 18 basement studio with super dead acoustics. My console sits between 8 active monitors divided left & right, along with 2 large 3 way speakers, and surround speakers. With divisional routing, it was a nice change to hear the Choir division from one side and the Swell from the other. The main comment I received was more clarity and sounds like you removed a blanket! The caveat was a solo stop no longer moves across the speakers as with the original design but it's worth the 'price' for the overall gain in overall sound quality. With the speaker count you are planing (48?), you should be able to have a combination of both.

A couple of other tips (at least to try): Lets say you decide to give 6 channels to the Swell division. Dedicate a separate Swell speaker pair for celeste & supplemental stops, "supplemental" would be those you feel would benefit from a separate channel rather than placed in the mix of the 6. The idea here is the celeste and its unison are always in separate speakers and the undulation happens in the air and not in the speaker drivers. From my experimentation, this design was an immediate, noticeable enhancement. The clarity and warmth really seemed to take hold.

Second tip, consider a pair of speakers dedicated to an En Chamade or big solo reed and put these in a different place maybe in the highest area. Rodgers use to do this with their bigger installs and used Klipsch horn-loaded speakers. Try loading this solo reed as mono and have 2 mono channels in a group and choose the C/C# split as the algorithm. You have now added to the realism of a horizontal reed, on its own independent channels (speakers), that can sit unaffected on top of a large ensemble, in a diatonic chest simulated layout. Add 2 more points to pipe organ realism :D


I understand and agree. My long-awaited plan is to have 48 channels - I like having the separation in the divisions of the organ. That is one of the quintessential features of an organ and, please excuse the shameless self-promotion, is something I really tried to exploit in my Concerto for Organ and Orchestra during the third movement. Using 10 speakers, though, it hardly seemed like a good idea. Doing a combination of both - i.e. 20 channels for Swell/Choir, 20 for Great/Solo (some stops), 2 channels for solo reeds, and 6 channels plus subs for pedals seems to be a good mix of both approaches, wouldn't you say?

Moving the Celeste's to their own channels is a WONDERFUL idea - something I had not thought of. I also really like the solo reed/chamade idea.

I am about to list a few of my speaker builds on Craigslist to try and get rid of them, at least the ones I know I'm not going to use (TLAH Pros, Windermere, etc.) and will take any money I can get out of them and buy some more Behringer's. If they don't sell, which is likely, then I will repurpose the drivers and maybe build something else with them.

Who knows?
Drew A. Worthen
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Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
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http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:49 pm

I have been eyeing the TriTrix MTM TL kit from PartsExpress and decided a couple of days ago to take the plunge and order and build them.

After working for a couple of hours the last two evenings, here is the result...

Image

Initial thoughts:

I like them. Big, full, and a very nice range for such small drivers. Over the next couple of days I will audition them against their biggest rival - the Behringer 2031's. At almost half the price ($400/pr - Behringer vs. $240 TriTrix kit from PE) they could be a good rival. The missing expense is the cost of amplification....
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:06 am

The TriTrix so far have exceeded expectations. They are very nice. I like them a lot. I still have not compared them against the Behringer's yet....

This was done with my phone, so it's not perfectly accurate, but here is their general response in a large open room, away from walls. (Bass response improves when up against a wall. This was tested with pink noise in the middle of a large room.)

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Owen Jones » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:01 am

Have a look at my website; info might be helpful.

http://theatreorgans.com/owenjones/
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby magnaton » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:13 am

Hey Drew:

Those speakers look great. I really like the double mid-range drivers with the tweeter sandwiched in between as my D7s have the same design and they work really well for organ music, which is I why bought them years ago. The main staple of Walker Technical speakers have this same design. Their mid-range drivers are oval shaped to eliminate any wave cancellation issues. I guess after your experience & knowledge of building your previous speakers from blueprints, having a complete kit with knock-down cabinets was akin to a Lego set :lol:

Regarding cost, I see PE has Class D 'bare bones' amps at different price ranges. I saw one with 300 watts for $60! Do you know if these require a pre-amp or will your audio interface serve that purpose? If the latter, that would give you 2 speakers w/power for $300. Nice! On the active monitor side, you should be able to negotiate a 10 to 15 percent discount since you'll be buying x number of units. In fact I just received a 12% discount coupon from another on-line retailer which qualified on the 2031As. So $352 a pair. I don't need any at the moment so I didn't pull the trigger. Oh yea just remembered that PE carries Behringer products too!

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Owen Jones » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:35 am

Hi There,

All the 2031As were accumulated over the years, from friends and eBay; the last lot I got, 3 pairs for $600 AUD.

Making up to 40 self powered speakers. 175 watts per speaker.

I have several configs setup, so I can choose what I like for different organs, theatre and classical.
Config 3 has this latest setup and it sounds great, more like real pipes sounding from real chambers.
The harmonics are handled by some 15" and foldback speakers so the chorus reeds don't become muffled on the lower frequencies.

I tried tuned percussion with notes in different speakers, however, it sounded funny like a 12 foot long xylophone; that setup didn't last long.

The 18" transmission line sub now handles the pedals and they have an effect on one's chest like real pipes.
I still have the Housewrecker and the 6th order Bandpass subs; they are now on holiday.
The 18" sub is powered by a 180watt amp mounted on the sub's cabinet. This unit is very heavy and that is why I installed wheels; the mdf is 16mm; I have a friend who has just built one out of 25mm, that must weigh a ton, and yes he also has installed wheels,

All the best.

Owen
Last edited by Owen Jones on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby ArnoldOrgans » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:40 am

The TriTrix from Parts Express has been considered a good alternative to high end home theater speakers for some time. I have a pair in the garage and they are perfect for listening to music. We tried them with Hauptwerk in a small space but preferred other options. Our Parts Express rep has been pushing for us to try the Amega.
https://www.parts-express.com/amiga-mt- ... --300-7122
It's frequency response looks promising. The negative is the power handling is a little low (this is why we haven't tried it). Knowing parts express I would think the RMS rating is conservative, especially when compared to many of the competitors stretched ratings.
Matt Arnold
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:43 am

I know this post has been largely about a church installation, but it's interesting how it has somewhat also morphed into various speaker types, most recently focusing on towers in particular. I feel towers are the way to go. I ended up with a garage sale find of cheap ($10 for the pair) Fisher tower speakers that very much mimic the Amiga kit pointed out by Matt at Arnold Organs. They have what I'd describe as a flat frequency response, no screechy highs, just very smooth with a nice mid and low end, and I have to say for HW use have been very good. The other thing I like about this type of tower design is the speakers are placed in the upper portion of the cabinets which makes getting the speakers up and off the floor and above you a bit easier, mine are placed on the ledge of the knee wall in my office, so the lowest drivers in the cabinets are at roughly top of my head level when seated at the console.

I've been a Polk Audio fan and have looked at these >>> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/polk-audio ... Id=4227200 Or maybe these as an alternative >>> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-core- ... Id=5926456 Both quite reasonably priced for what you get, of course a person could jump up to an offering in the Klipsch line-up or something like that as well. Based on my experience so far with the towers I have I wonder how they would sound in comparison, but I feel looking at the specs they would probably do quite well, better than what I have now perhaps.

I'm also a fan of stacking the speakers left and right on the side of the console, and having at least 3 pairs up front in a home set up would probably sound awesome. The only drawback is the tower height, although these shown are not huge. As a fix I was pondering single left / right tower cabinet assemblies (possibly separated into 3 separate chambers inside?) that would house enough speakers for 6 channels of audio but have them so they don't end up being ridiculously high.

Marc
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:11 pm

1961TC4ME wrote:I've been a Polk Audio fan and have looked at these >>> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/polk-audio ... Id=4227200 Or maybe these as an alternative >>> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-core- ... Id=5926456 Both quite reasonably priced for what you get, of course a person could jump up to an offering in the Klipsch line-up or something like that as well. Based on my experience so far with the towers I have I wonder how they would sound in comparison, but I feel looking at the specs they would probably do quite well, better than what I have now perhaps.
Marc


I am actually an authorized Polk Dealer. I have considered several of their speakers but haven't really invested in them for Hauptwerk use. I also don't own a pair. I do have a pair of GoldenEar Triton II's that are designed by Sandy Gross, the original designer for Polk. They are AWESOME! Klipsch is actually based here in Indy and I am good friends with their local rep. I used to also sell a lot of their home theater stuff (and occasionally their Heritage stuff) when I worked for a local hi-fi shop. I also install them in some of my home theaters - and they are GREAT for that - but I, personally, am NOT a fan of them for music, especially organ. Those horns are just SOOOO colorful. I'm not a fan of them in any scenario other than theaters. They are VERY dramatic, and work well in that instance.

ArnoldOrgans wrote: Our Parts Express rep has been pushing for us to try the Amega.
https://www.parts-express.com/amiga-mt- ... --300-7122
It's frequency response looks promising. The negative is the power handling is a little low (this is why we haven't tried it). Knowing parts express I would think the RMS rating is conservative, especially when compared to many of the competitors stretched ratings.


Thank you for the recommendation! I might have to try that one out. I see it also comes in the completed cabinet kit. I may have to build this one next.

What are the "other options" that you preferred?
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby ArnoldOrgans » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:58 pm

dw154515 wrote:
Thank you for the recommendation! I might have to try that one out. I see it also comes in the completed cabinet kit. I may have to build this one next.

What are the "other options" that you preferred?

Sorry for the delay in response.

I was mainly referring to the usual studio monitor options. We do have a custom build that when made in house costs about the same as the Tri Trix. We only sell our custom speaker components with turn key consoles. Here is a parts-express list that will get you close (not that you need another speaker to try).
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-au ... m--295-577
https://www.parts-express.com/morel-cat ... r--277-080
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-au ... z--260-142
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