Search:
Submit Search


Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:15 pm

So after spending a considerable amount of time comparing the TriTrix and the Behringer 2031's, here are my takeaways:

- 2031's have a better frequency range. The low end is much more audible. This is not surprising. The front-facing ports also ensure that sound is aimed forward. (Unlike the TriTrix which are rear)
- 2031's are also "louder." They are capable of more output. The dynamic range is better.

- TriTrix are VERY musical. I am very happy with their performance, honestly. I don't think they are suited for large Hauptwerk setups in CHURCHES, BUT I do believe they would be magnificent in large, multi-channel home setups. The rear-facing ports give a great ambience. For better bass response, back them into a corner or against a wall.


TriTrix aren't as "loud" as the Behringer's but they are much for 'forgiving' and musical. This is, again, expected. Studio monitors are meant to be as accurate as possible - some more so than others, obviously - while almost all home theater and even some higher-end speakers are actually designed to manipulate or color the sound to some degree. This isn't revolutionary or "new" information.

My conclusion is this: I'm still sold on the Behringer 2031 monitors for my church project as of this moment, BUT the TriTrix (for anyone who's interested) would actually make a very fine home Hauptwerk speaker - especially with multichannel and sub.
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:51 pm

So, after a few weeks of using the "Franken-Organ" in the church sanctuary, it is time for it to come back home. A week from today will be it's last service. I have gained a lot of information about the nature of Hauptwerk's multi-channel capabilities, as well as learned much of what I needed to learn in terms of speaker specs.

Without a doubt, the Behringer 2031's are the clear winners for the main speakers I have tested/built which, to date are:

TLAH Pro's
Windermere^2
Fostex BK-12M
TriTrix
Behringer 2031


The TubaHT stands as a clear winner as well. Of the various routing combinations I tried, using my Cymatic Audio LP-16, I would like to say that a few things mentioned by other's on this thread are good points of note.

Namely, Celeste ranks need their own channel(s) and so do Solo voices. I was primarily playing the Salisbury set, and putting the various solo reeds (Tubas, Clarinet, English Horn, etc.) on the TLAH Pro's was very satisfying. I'm thinking that I may swap a couple of channels-worth of Behringer 2031's for something a bit more powerful to handle solo voices - especially if we end up with Tuba's in our sample sets.

In terms of support, the project is certainly gaining a lot of attention and having the "Franken-Organ" in the sanctuary for people to "ooh" and "aah" over for the last few weeks has certainly been the best-possible sales demonstration. It has proved, without a doubt to anyone who didn't otherwise know any better, that the possibilities of Hauptwerk so far outweigh what the old Allen toaster can do.

So, now, it seems like I have arrived at a brief (deceptive) cadence - a point in the project where the speaker experimentations may largely be done - and we can now get down to the business of funding.
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby jkinkennon » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:28 am

That's excellent news, Drew. If only fund raising were as much fun as the engineering and musical side of things. I suspect that the extended live demo will make the sale for you. Keep us informed as this has turned into quite a helpful thread.
jkinkennon
Member
 
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:43 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:21 pm

Hello everyone. It has been a while since my last update and I wanted to keep everyone posted, as well as share some information that may or may not be common knowledge regarding MOTU 24ao (more specifically Windows AVB). But first.....

I had a great visit from Danny B. - aka "Magnaton" - who happened to be in town this past weekend. We were able to get together and share some stories, ideas, experiences, etc. and it was a very rewarding visit. He also got to check out the various speaker builds mentioned on this thread - namely the TubaHT. I will let him share his thoughts on those if he feels so inclined.

Beyond that, our unofficial "organ finance campaign committee" has been formed and we will be kicking off (officially) our funding campaign February 25th. The church's finance chairperson is a big supporter of the project and member of the committee. He seems quite confident that funding will be complete in 6-8 weeks. :D I am completely blown away by that. I was thinking we were still months away at least. More info to come after our meeting next month. Unfortunately, that was the soonest date we could all get together. Still, though, that gives me time to finish all of the design work and get the costs nailed down.

In that vein of solidifying my design, I decided to call MOTU and ask some questions about the 24ao and I'm glad I did. Apparently Microsoft has not developed an AVB driver for AVB NICs. From what I gathered, the Streamware NIC-1 ($800) is the only way of streaming AVB out of the PC to the MOTUs. BUT FEAR NOT! According to the MOTU guy, the USB stream will handle 64 channels with less latency than AVB! :shock: I find that hard to believe. You can then AVB between the two MOTU 24ao's for channels 25-48. This may have been covered on other forum threads, but does anyone have experience using multiple MOTU 24ao's? I'd like to chat about that before committing to spend that much money on something un-tested.

Exciting times ahead, folks!
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:29 pm

How very fun! Congratulations. :lol:
Romanos
Member
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:11 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby mdyde » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:35 pm

Hello Drew,

dw154515 wrote:In that vein of solidifying my design, I decided to call MOTU and ask some questions about the 24ao and I'm glad I did. Apparently Microsoft has not developed an AVB driver for AVB NICs. From what I gathered, the Streamware NIC-1 ($800) is the only way of streaming AVB out of the PC to the MOTUs. BUT FEAR NOT! According to the MOTU guy, the USB stream will handle 64 channels with less latency than AVB! :shock: I find that hard to believe. You can then AVB between the two MOTU 24ao's for channels 25-48. This may have been covered on other forum threads, but does anyone have experience using multiple MOTU 24ao's? I'd like to chat about that before committing to spend that much money on something un-tested.


I have two MOTU 16A units connected together via AVB, which are connected to the computer (from one of the 16A units) via USB 2.0, and they work very well for me on both macOS and Windows 10 at low latencies with the full 64 channels of audio that's allowed over USB 2.0:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16127

Some other AVB topics:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15358
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16279
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16570

Unfortunately, the forum software doesn't allow searches for words less than 4 characters long, so you can't search it for 'AVB', but 'MOTU' will probably find them all (albeit with some trawling).
Best regards,
Martin.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]

Image
User avatar
mdyde
Moderator
 
Posts: 10644
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
Location: UK

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby jkinkennon » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:54 pm

According to the MOTU guy, the USB stream will handle 64 channels with less latency than AVB!


MOTU claims sub-millisecond latency for AVB so I too doubt that claim. Still the 64 channels at conventional rates of 5ms or less won't be noticeable in any real world installation. Several of us have used the USB 2.0 connection successfully.

Great to see the continued progress!
jkinkennon
Member
 
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:43 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:07 pm

Similar to Martin's setup, but with a MOTU Ultra :Lite AVB connected via USB 2.0 to a PC running Win 7. The AVB Ethernet network output jack of the MOTU Ultra Lite AVB connected to a MOTU 24Ao via a CAT 6 cable. At this point using 16 of the available 24 channels - works fine with no appreciable latency.

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5364
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:33 pm

It's crazy to think AVB streaming isn't supported in Windows. I use AVB (and Dante) almost daily, but I have never used it in this type of application before (attempting to stream out of a PC via the network port). I just assumed it would be possible. I shouldn't be so surprised. Seems like a huge oversight, but perhaps not.

Thank you all for the information.
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby organtechnology » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:11 pm

engrssc wrote:Similar to Martin's setup, but with a MOTU Ultra :Lite AVB connected via USB 2.0 to a PC running Win 7. The AVB Ethernet network output jack of the MOTU Ultra Lite AVB connected to a MOTU 24Ao via a CAT 6 cable. At this point using 16 of the available 24 channels - works fine with no appreciable latency.

Rgds,
Ed


Hi Ed,

That is the same setup we used for a small church in Texas and it has so far worked very well in that environment.

MOTU indicated to me that the preferable setup AVB uses USB to the first sound module (MOTU Ultralite AVB in this case) and the AVB cable to subsequent sound modules. Whether or not it was Windows or OSX!
So USB first seems to be the preference. The use of the Ultralite also provides audio to or around the console and headphone audio.

Dante on the other hand works from the network card to the DANTE network directly through the level 2 switch of course, but it does not provide any local console audio for headphones etc. Dante also requires Gigabit ethernet devices to run over 64 channels.

Best regards,

Thomas
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

Authorized Hauptwerk Dealer; Milan Digital Audio Dealer..
User avatar
organtechnology
Member
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:58 pm
Location: DFW, TX USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 pm

organtechnology wrote:
MOTU indicated to me that the preferable setup AVB uses USB to the first sound module (MOTU Ultralite AVB in this case) and the AVB cable to subsequent sound modules. Whether or not it was Windows or OSX!
So USB first seems to be the preference. The use of the Ultralite also provides audio to or around the console and headphone audio.


Same plan here, presently combining channels for a headphone feed at the console with a soon to be added surround sound feed(s), also from the Ultralite AVB as the console in this case is in the rear of the auditorium. Quite a convenient situation.

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5364
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:33 pm

I decided to build a heavy-duty rolling platform to make the console easily movable during the building and wiring phase (starting soon) and it will ultimately be used for the permanent installation as well, so the console can be moved center-stage for recitals and concerts.

Image

Image

2 sheets of 3/4" red oak plywood (cut down to 33"x55" each)
2x4's
bolts
heavy duty casters (Amazon)

For the time being, it will remain as is but I will eventually add 1x6 red oak boards around the outside as a "skirt" to hide the casters a little better and to completely cover the ugly pine 2x4's. I originally considered building the entire thing out of red oak, but I quickly realized that would be a.) outrageously expensive (8' red oak 2x4 is $45/ea!!), not to mention those hard woods are so difficult to work with. In the end, this worked out great. If anyone would like the build plans, I can draw them up for you. Nothing to it.

The hardest part is going to be getting the console up on there. I'm still trying to work that out.
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:37 am

What you need is an organ dollie which you might be able to rent from a piano/organ moving company.

Image

I was fortunate to buy a used dollie on eBay (they come in pairs) for quite cheap. There is a (new) dollie presently on eBay, but I paid much less than the asking price shown.

To use these, you slip the metal plate of the dollie under the console, one on each end. I used a heavy duty tow strap with a ratcheting hook arrangement (from Menards) to go around the 2 dollies with the console between them. There is a foot lever mechanism on each dollie that you step on which raises the console which then is on the dollie's wheels.

Image

The folding handles on each end can be used for lifting. The wood of the dollie itself is made of heavy duty oak.

Piece of cake after that.

Also you can rent a ramp from most moving and storage companys. I have a pair of folding ramps that I use to load my garden tractor on to my trailer which I used. Each ramp will support 750 lbs. There are wheel chair ramps, depending on the weight capacity, that could be used.

Image

We covered the platform we made with carpet, the sides as well. Just an idea. Likewise, you may want to add a small strip of wood along the back edge to prevent the bench from being moved too far (off the edge of the platform).

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5364
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:48 pm

dw154515 wrote:For the time being, it will remain as is but I will eventually add 1x6 red oak boards around the outside as a "skirt" to hide the casters a little better and to completely cover the ugly pine 2x4's. .


Available red oak veneer:

https://ws%20ww.ebay.com/p/Cloverdale-24x96-Red-Oak-Veneer/1285077411?iid=192170799373&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3D85c516b008784f779aab3ef6ec6b17c6%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D151819875580%26itm%3D192170799373&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5364
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:37 pm

All done. (Except for stain and poly - to be done later.)

All it took was a little muscle to get it up there. :P

Image

This thing is SO EASY to move. I can literally push it around with one finger.

Now I am going to start laying out all of the "guts."

None of the components have been ordered yet. I'm just prepping for everything.
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PreviousNext

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest