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Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby jkinkennon » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:35 am

Drew, I think it will be fascinating to get your boss's perspective on multichannel used to separate major and minor thirds and to delay mixing until the sound is in the air as well as his thoughts about maintaining stereo signals.

I'm also reminded that even with many speakers we generally reproduce one pipe through only two of the many speakers. I am curious whether he will think that studio monitors will be ok for your larger space or if he would suggest something more potent but with the same accuracy.

Keep us informed. This thread has been good for all of us so we should just let it grow!
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:26 pm

Yes, I'm wondering what his thoughts on the studio monitors will be - likely he will caution against it as they are meant for near-field listening. One of the things I want to get his thoughts on, and also something that you just eluded to - at what point is it "enough."

This would be a good time to start learning about the possible routing options in Hauptwerk.

Does anyone out there have Leo's original spreadsheet and thesis? My reason for suggesting the 48 channels largely comes from the fact that that's what will be available with the two MOTU interfaces, but I suppose, in all practicality, that may not be absolutely necessary?

How does this configuration work? One pair of speakers per "Note" in the following divisions...

Channels: 1-12 = Pedal
Channels: 13-24 = Great
Channels: 25-36 = Choir
Channels: 37-48 = Swell

I would, however, like a sample set with a Solo division. (I REALLY like the Goerlitz, Sonnenorgel from SP, by the way. http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/organs/top-selection/goerlitz-sonnenorgel.html)

But how best to route those? I'm only familiar with Hauptwerk's routing in stereo in my home setup. I've never done the multichannel. I know it has a few algorithms to choose from and there are some threads on the topic, but what's the basic consensus? I most frequently see the "cyclic within octave" being tossed around.

The option I've also seen is having the speakers grouped in Minor 2nds (C/C#, D/D#, etc.).

Assuming the use of the Sonnenorgel, how would you think it best to route that over 48 main channels?
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby scottherbert » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:27 pm

Drew, I could be totally wrong about this, but when I read Leos writings about how he routed sound to his many speakers, I got the impression that he routed separate voices, not notes to each speaker. He often spoke of how having a celeste with each rank coming from a separate speaker to mix in the air sounded more realistic than just sampled together and fed through a single speaker. I believe he noted a similar effect with resultants as well. Whether he did this as well as separate notes per speaker, I do not know.

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby magnaton » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:06 am

dw154515 wrote:How does this configuration work? One pair of speakers per "Note" in the following divisions...

Channels: 1-12 = Pedal
Channels: 13-24 = Great
Channels: 25-36 = Choir
Channels: 37-48 = Swell
/ ..../
I know it has a few algorithms to choose from and there are some threads on the topic, but what's the basic consensus? I most frequently see the "cyclic within octave" being tossed around.


Your channel division is what I call the Classic digital organ configuration as Allen and Rodgers in days past would simply add two speakers per division. Many times it would be less, combining 2 divisions to a single pair. Or course you have 6 pairs per division! 8)

The "cyclic within octave" is mentioned a lot because it divvy's up notes and ranks in the most efficient manner. In other words playing a few stops with both hands the Great, all 12 speakers will have an equal 'audio load' regardless of which octave you're playing in. The other 3 algorithms are not as efficient but do have their value depending on the desired objective.

Another method is to group like sounding ranks into their own stereo pair. Pull a single pair just for the pedal division and maybe give the big solo reed his own dedicated pair. So instead of having 5 audio groups (with 6 stereo pairs each) as you've designed above, you'll have 24 separate audio (stereo) groups. The multi-channel algorithms won't apply in this design since each group is just 2 speakers. The fun part here is to take an Excel sheet with the organ specification and map out which rank will go where. This is a good starting point which most likely will get edited once you start auditioning the sound.

Forum member Marc (1961TC4ME) spent many hours on this method documenting then commenting on the revisions and results including trying to go Mono!
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13679

With the HW Alt Config shortcuts, you'll be able to set both of these routing designs up or maybe even a 3rd to easily compare and contrast. From the pictures you've attached, you'll be some distance away from the speakers so its my guess you may not be able to discern much of a difference between these designs. It will be a fun audio adventure regardless.

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:46 pm

Drew A. Worthen
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http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby brooke.benfield » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:01 pm

Looks like there's plenty of things scattered about which could create unwanted additional noise when sufficiently excited by the new organ (flex conduit, etc.).
Last edited by brooke.benfield on Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby jkinkennon » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:41 pm

Drew, if you like the Goerlitz samples then it's important to reiterate that the front direct samples are suitable, perhaps ideal, for church installations. The releases on these direct samples have just barely enough tail to prevent notes from sounding chopped off at the release, that being my general concern with dry samples. It's possible to add just a bit of the diffuse perspective if desired. This results in both a very subtle volume and a significant reduction in the length of the reverb since the volume reduction decreases the late responses below what is audible. Add the possibility of truncating the releases and there's a ton of flexibility.

I see no reason to divide multiple audio channels among the different divisions with the exception of the pedal where those channels would muddy the sound of the main speakers to some extent. If each division has its own set of speakers then a lot of the time only a third or so of the speakers will be used. Of course with large registrations and coupling all the speakers would be playing all of the time. I was experimenting with channel routing for the Goerlitz samples yesterday and spent some time playing back MIDI files and watching how the speakers were utilized and came up with this as a starting possibility:

Front Direct Group -- 9 stereo pairs -- 18 speakers
Front Diffuse Group -- 3 stereo pairs -- 6 speakers
Pedal Group -- 3 stereo pairs + 2 Tuba HTs -- 8 speakers

That would be 30 or 32 channels depending on where the 3 pedal channels mix down for the subs. I thought the Diffuse Group would be playing relatively quietly and would be less critical to the overall sound, hence fewer speakers. The separation of Direct and Diffuse ranks is important to maintain the anticipated channel routing using the cyclical, everything cycled default -- story, I forgot the exact terminology there. I also feel that separating Direct and Diffuse is a separation of like sounds that are most likely to interfere with each other in the same speaker.

Obviously I don't have 32 speakers in my house so this is only a mental exercise at this point. I did listen to the 30 channels mixed down for my six front speakers and sub, but from there on the real testing will have to happen in someone else's space. Clearly one might choose to use no Diffuse samples at all and might want more speakers or fewer, so take this as my idea of a starting point for listening only.

Perhaps Brooke Benfield can add his thoughts about routing or a link to a post if this has already been discussed. His installation sounded great when I heard it some time ago.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby brooke.benfield » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:43 pm

Here's a link to a thread in which I discussed the audio system layout for my installation at Gethsemane Lutheran Church.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13670

I skimped on details about the pedal division so I'll fill that in a little better here. I have 4 pairs of monitors each with their own pair of subs fed by aux mixdown ( 4 speakers per group ) dedicated to the pedal division. I tried to distribute the stops such that the different pitch levels and timbres are spread more or less equally.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:56 pm

So I met with my boss today and he has agreed to come on board as the unofficial title of "acoustic engineer." Haha. Josh is a good guy with a lot of good insight and experience in the world of concert hall acoustics and speaker/live audio experience. His comments about the Behronger monitors were reassuring - and offered to get me a demo pair to try out if I was interested.

Although not intimately familiar with pipe organs, I think he will be an invaluable asset. He is going to come see the sanctuary and do some measurements and listening and get a better understanding of the room, as well has lay ears to the TubaHT. I think he and I will be able to fill in a lot of the "blanks" for one another - his knowledge of acoustics and my knowledge of organs - should provide good results. He seems very intrigued and fascinated by the project, simply looking at it as a very unique audio system. From that perspective, it's fascinating and quite different than the approach one would take for, say, a standard PA system in the same environment. The unique application of the same old components that we use on a near-regular basis, but in a totally new way, makes for a good time all around.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:11 pm

Hey folks,

So, today I went and got ANOTHER organ console. Now I don't know what I'm going to do with TWO, but I just couldn't let this thing get out of my sight, and I certainly wasn't about to let it go to the dump. So here it is, my other new Allen console....

Image

Please see a complete album here:

http://www.drewworthen.com/single-post/2017/01/21/Allen-RMW-TH3


I will actually sell one of these consoles to the right buyer if anyone is interested. I really don't need two of these things in my workspace.

However, I'm not sure which one I want to keep. This theater organ model looks better cosmetically, but all of
the stop tabs will be tossed out.

Here's the other one....

Image

On another note, we are in the process of doing some initial measurements of the sanctuary acoustics and the performance capabilities of both the TubaHT and the CSS Trio12 BIB subs. More to come on that in a couple of weeks.
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby organtechnology » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:33 pm

Hi Drew,

I think you have a really big job on your hands to convert the Allen to Hauptwerk.
I bet it has second touch keyboard contacts and looking at the solenoids on the end of the keyboards it probably has about 5 or 6 different keying busses and not all of them will be full compass. But for someone building a VTPO it would be a find. I would vote for the classical style for a church (if I had a vote :) )

dw154515 wrote:Hey folks,

So, today I went and got ANOTHER organ console. Now I don't know what I'm going to do with TWO, but I just couldn't let this thing get out of my sight, and I certainly wasn't about to let it go to the dump. So here it is, my other new Allen console....

Image

Please see a complete album here:

http://www.drewworthen.com/single-post/2017/01/21/Allen-RMW-TH3


I will actually sell one of these consoles to the right buyer if anyone is interested. I really don't need two of these things in my workspace.

However, I'm not sure which one I want to keep. This theater organ model looks better cosmetically, but all of
the stop tabs will be tossed out.

Here's the other one....

Image

On another note, we are in the process of doing some initial measurements of the sanctuary acoustics and the performance capabilities of both the TubaHT and the CSS Trio12 BIB subs. More to come on that in a couple of weeks.
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:40 pm

organtechnology wrote:Hi Drew,

I think you have a really big job on your hands to convert the Allen to Hauptwerk.
I bet it has second touch keyboard contacts and looking at the solenoids on the end of the keyboards it probably has about 5 or 6 different keying busses and not all of them will be full compass. But for someone building a VTPO it would be a find. I would vote for the classical style for a church (if I had a vote :) )

dw154515 wrote:Hey folks,

So, today I went and got ANOTHER organ console. Now I don't know what I'm going to do with TWO, but I just couldn't let this thing get out of my sight, and I certainly wasn't about to let it go to the dump. So here it is, my other new Allen console....

Image

Please see a complete album here:

http://www.drewworthen.com/single-post/2017/01/21/Allen-RMW-TH3


I will actually sell one of these consoles to the right buyer if anyone is interested. I really don't need two of these things in my workspace.

However, I'm not sure which one I want to keep. This theater organ model looks better cosmetically, but all of
the stop tabs will be tossed out.

Here's the other one....

Image

On another note, we are in the process of doing some initial measurements of the sanctuary acoustics and the performance capabilities of both the TubaHT and the CSS Trio12 BIB subs. More to come on that in a couple of weeks.


I am inclined to agree with you, but the minimal style is appealing in these modern times. I, for one, do enjoy the minimalist modern aesthetic. It also needs less refinishing work than the "traditional" one.

If no one is interested in buying one off me, I will likely end up pulling manuals and parts from one and putting them on the other. Maybe have a 4-5 manual console by the time I'm done. :lol:
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby jkinkennon » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:04 pm

I have converted a couple of Allen models that appear to be identical to what you have. The theater model is really great for someone using the Paramount samples because the tabs will match up so well with the existing labelling.

IMHO it would be a shame to let all those SAMs go to waste. On the console I had much of the SAMs wiring had already been destroyed so that made a big job really huge.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:28 pm

For what it's worth, theater style consoles have been installed in churches no problem. I never cared for the look of them until I had to use one extensively for my degree. Turns out they are extremely convenient because all the tabs are very, very close but still out of the way. If I were you, I would use that console and simply have new tabs cut for it. Any organ builder could engrave them or tell you how to order them. I would keep the real, physical stop tabs. They are much more rewarding to use. And if you aren't yet committed to a single sample set, you could have generic stop names like, "principal 8' " and then link the montre 8 to that.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:23 am

So, I spent several hours this week playing around in the sanctuary with various speaker setups utilizing some of the speakers that I have built on this thread.

I can reiterate that the TubaHT is awesome. I also have the Trio12 BIB on site as well, but I have not tried it.

I used the TLAHPro line arrays for my mids and highs since they were the most capable to handle all of the mass output from the Hauptwerk recordings I played from Contrebombarde, YouTube, etc.

What I must say, though, and this has already been eluded to earlier in the thread, but line arrays really aren't the way to go, but I do think there is merit there, for certain applications.

What we discussed early on in the thread, about maybe splitting each line array in half and making each one essentially two channels, still seems like a reasonable idea and very worthy of a test. The TLAH Pros cost me roughly $120 each since I used a budget $9 driver instead of the recommended Eminence driver at $45 each. And, as you can imagine with 16 drivers and 16 piezos per pair, they had NO TROUBLE filling that giant sanctuary on their own. These things are very, VERY efficient and as a result, difficult to listen to up close. You really have to get away from them. (Like any line array for that matter.) Sitting in the back of the sanctuary, and turning the line arrays so that they weren't aimed directly at the listener, but instead aimed slightly in or out (creating reflections off the walls, etc.) proved the best results - as expected. I do think a pair of them would possibly to VERY well for use in a solo division, though. Chamades, Tubas, solo reeds, etc. would likely be very nice on these.

However, when taking into account price, time to build, cost of sufficient power amplifiers, etc. the TLAH pro's just aren't an ideal solution throughout the entire organ in this case since the Behringer 2031's are $200/ea with amps included, and are capable of a much clearer and accurate reproduction of sound. The budget $9 driver could likely be the culprit in the TLAH Pros, because they do lack clarity, especially in the mid-range. This is NOT a poor review of the TLAH Pros, because I do think they are great, but I did deviate heavily from the original plan by changing the drivers. Even as built, they would do a FANTASTIC job in certain applications, and I am very happy to have built them.

The real champion, though, is the TubaHT. I just can't help but grin from ear to ear when those 32' Bombardes kick in. If you look at some of the pictures that I posted before, you can look in the far corners on each side of the sanctuary and see where I positioned this thing down the hallway on the side of the altar. I faced it backward, since the space above the hall is open up to the ceiling behind the altar. This allowed me to use, as I had planned, the hallway and vaulted ceiling as an extension of the horn throat from the TubaHT. I was debating using TWO TubaHT's but I now realize that one is quite sufficient.

I am wondering, though, if having two sub mixdowns, one for C, D, E, F#, G#, A# and one for C#, D#, F, G, A, B would be worthwhile since the TubaHT isn't the most articulate sub out there. Getting it to change quickly isn't easy.

I am also thinking about building the HouseWrecker just for grins. 15" subs are notoriously difficult to get moving quickly.

Also, the process has begun to get the instrument funded. I was given the "green light" by the trustees to start funding the project.
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