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Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:12 am

dw154515 wrote:The real champion, though, is the TubaHT. I just can't help but grin from ear to ear when those 32' Bombardes kick in.

...

Also, the process has begun to get the instrument funded. I was given the "green light" by the trustees to start funding the project.



Three cheers!
I'm glad they are allowing you to start funding. That is perhaps one of the more monumental steps even though it doesn't involve physical exertion.

As for the TubaHT, I'm not surprised it is so successful. If you think about its construction (it is essentially the subwoofer equivalent of an uber-mitered wooden pipe) it makes sense to me that it excels at making an organ-like sound. (All the more considering that wooden bombardes are "conical" pipes too!) It pushes a large air column in the same way a pipe does.

I have a positively lovely church (late 1800's pro-cathedral in OK) that has retained its original stained glass and high altars, however, I'm doomed to a Moller double artiste. I always think about how lovely HW with a dry sampleset would be in the space. I have one open chamber (bell tower) and another enclosed to the left. Between dual chambers and a lovely acoustic, I think HW would really shine in the space. I also have a priest who is phenomenal and told me I have "carte blanche" to do whatever music I want. If I think it's lovely and will edify the liturgy, I can do it. No questions asked. I just don't have an organ to do it on!
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby ppytprs » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:28 am

dw154515 wrote:I am wondering, though, if having two sub mixdowns, one for C, D, E, F#, G#, A# and one for C#, D#, F, G, A, B would be worthwhile since the TubaHT isn't the most articulate sub out there. Getting it to change quickly isn't easy.



I wouldn't bother with this. 32' pipes themselves speak very slowly. They have a much slower attack than any speaker.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby jkinkennon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:48 pm

Romanos wrote:I have a positively lovely church (late 1800's pro-cathedral in OK) that has retained its original stained glass and high altars, however, I'm doomed to a Moller double artiste. I always think about how lovely HW with a dry sampleset would be in the space.


At St. Barnabas we installed a HW console alongside a small Moller. Don't rule out the possibility if the console location has extra space. It's good to have real pipes (even Moller) as a reference sound.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:55 pm

jkinkennon wrote:
Romanos wrote:I have a positively lovely church (late 1800's pro-cathedral in OK) that has retained its original stained glass and high altars, however, I'm doomed to a Moller double artiste. I always think about how lovely HW with a dry sampleset would be in the space.


At St. Barnabas we installed a HW console alongside a small Moller. Don't rule out the possibility if the console location has extra space. It's good to have real pipes (even Moller) as a reference sound.


If anything, I'd just prefer to have a midified console with added tabs. I'd still like to use the moller. As much as I love HW, there's no reason to not make good use of my real (and surprisingly lovely, at least in this space) 8' principal and the 16' sub bass among others. I would love a "both and" scenario. With dry samples such a scenario should work well.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:20 pm

I just realized this thread started almost a year ago! :shock:

Anyway, the next couple of weeks will be spent doing some more testing. The guy I'm bringing on (that I work with) to help me out with the speaker placement, tuning, etc. will be coming down next weekend to check out the space, do some measurements, and give me some recommendations. He also has a pair of Behringer 2031's for me to try out.

As for sample sets, I haven't really made my mind up yet, but I was particularly fond of the Hereford demos that I played through the setup. That is a sample set that I had not spent any time with before now.

Of course, a lovely Skinner would be nice. And I do really like the Goerlitz Sonnenorgel from Sonus Paradisi. The only problem I have with the latter, is the lack of chamade or solo reed.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:41 pm

dw154515 wrote: The only problem I have with the latter, is the lack of chamade or solo reed.


Certain sets let you fake one if the tone is right. For instance, I wanted to record a trumpet tune once. I took the great trumpet of the set I was using and used the voicing tools to increase the amplitude and brightness a bit and it went from chorus reed to solo stop quite nicely. Always a last ditch option. Some savvy users could perhaps do a CODM file for you to repurpose a specific stop to make available as normal and revoiced as well.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby murph » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:18 pm

Hi,
The Oberwerk trompet on Goerlitz can be voiced up quite effectively to play a party-horn. About 7.5db gain, 2.5 brightness should do.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:07 pm

Hello everyone. It has been a while since I reported back but truthfully, not a lot has happened since we spoke last. Work has taken me out of town a LOT in the last couple of months and the church has had number of other "more important" projects come up that needed attention.

Still, though, the heart of the project is still beating and waiting for the church to now get on board with the project - financially and otherwise.

In the meantime, I have been hard at work learning the final movement of Guilmant's Organ Sonata No.1, Op.42 in the hopes of playing it for the organ dedication - whenever that is.

I remain committed to the project despite the lull in physical support by the church - which is hopefully only temporary.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:38 am

I've had similar experiences when dealing with church projects requiring much patience. They seem to get derailed easily. Perseverance and keeping one's eye on the goal is mandatory.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:24 pm

So, it seems like what the trustees want to see happen is for me to drag my personal Hauptwerk setup into the church and use it in the space for a few weeks to let everyone "ooooh" and "aaaaahh" over it and leave them with a taste comparison between what IT can do and what the old Allen toaster can do.

Medium Filet Mignon with a Merlot Wine Sauce vs. Skirt Steak at Western Sizzlin'...... should be a no brainer, eh?

Now, though, as part of this, it's time to do some more experimenting. After spending a few months with the Behringer 2031's, I can't say I'm totally in love with them. They aren't bad. Certainly not "bad." I'm just not blown away. I really need to spend some more time with them..... but they left me uninspired.

I have, however, spent a LOT of time listening to the little Fostex BK-12's and I just LOVE these little guys! They are so awesome!

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/full-range-speaker-kits/fostex-bk-12m-folded-horn-kit-pair/

They are VERY easy to build on your own (as far as folded horns are concerned) and they are really inexpensive. The full range driver is $57 and you can build about 6 of them with 2 sheets (and a slight bit extra) of 4x8 plywood (at $30/ea.), plus a little stuffing, leaving you at a cost of about $85 per speaker. I actually took these things and put them on my workbench/desk at work!! I listen to them almost daily and I just love them!!!

So.....

I'm planning on making three more pairs of them - bringing me up to a total of 8. Add my TubaHT and try out this setup as the demo for the congregation.

To do my demo for the trustees, I used the TLAHPro line arrays and the TubaHT and just played some Contrebombarde.com recordings. They were blown away (literally) by just that.

The problem is, though, that I have SO MUCH OTHER CRAP in the way right now and I have absolutely NO TIME to work on this.
Drew A. Worthen
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby ArnoldOrgans » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:52 am

Drew,
The Fostex BK-12's specs seem to show a rated power of 15 watts and a "music power" of 45 watts. Am I correct in thinking it takes many Fostex BK-12's to equal the same output of a single B2031A? Have you tried more than 1 driver per enclosure?
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:12 pm

It is true that they aren't as powerful. There's no denying that. However, my plan is still to utilize as many as 48 of them, so, all things considered, a less powerful individual speaker can still achieve great output in large numbers.

And, since the Fostex can be built at a fraction of the cost of the Behringer ($85 vs $199), I could even add 10-20 more. I understand that this isn't taking into account the cost-per-channel for amplifiers, but 48 Behringer's come with their own inherent additional cost: electricity. We will have to have an electrician run new circuits for all of those, as well as put them on a startup relay power sequencer to avoid pops.

I also want to try the other Fostex builds. The larger drivers should make for more output as well as lower range.
Drew A. Worthen
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby organtechnology » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:51 pm

dw154515 wrote:It is true that they aren't as powerful. There's no denying that. However, my plan is still to utilize as many as 48 of them, so, all things considered, a less powerful individual speaker can still achieve great output in large numbers.

And, since the Fostex can be built at a fraction of the cost of the Behringer ($85 vs $199), I could even add 10-20 more. I understand that this isn't taking into account the cost-per-channel for amplifiers, but 48 Behringer's come with their own inherent additional cost: electricity. We will have to have an electrician run new circuits for all of those, as well as put them on a startup relay power sequencer to avoid pops.

I also want to try the other Fostex builds. The larger drivers should make for more output as well as lower range.


Although I am not certain how much the power is spread about using the Hauptwerk algorithms, I am certain that the speakers do not add to the loudness as much as to the clarity unless you have multiple speakers per channel.

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:07 pm

Ok, so a lot has happened since I reported back last time. In that time I have moved my personal Hauptwerk rig into the sanctuary and set it up using a new Cymatic Audio LP-16, 8 channel amp, a pair of Behringer 2031s, my TLAH Pros, Windermere^2's, Fostex BK-12m's, a pair of Kustom wedge floor monitors, and my TubaHT.... and I have now dubbed it the "Franken-organ." :twisted:

Seriously, though, I have discovered and learned A LOT. Much of it has already been covered here on the thread, but I wanted to report back with a few things.

1.) As I already knew, it is paramount that you use the same speaker in your multi-channel outputs. This is actually pretty obvious to me, since I work in audio, but I do see a lot of people mixing and matching due to budget reasons, etc. and that is totally understandable. Since I have only one pair of 5 different kinds of speakers, I went ahead and started experimenting. With such a conglomeration of speakers, it makes the most sense to group them and route stops to them based on their abilities - i.e. the Windermere and Fostex work very well with flutes. The Behringers do well with just about anything... the TLAH Pro's (since they are line arrays) worked well with the Solo stops, etc. etc. (I was using the full Salisbury set to test with....)

2.) The TubaHT is MORE than enough subwoofer. My God, that thing may actually be a bit too much.

3.) The Cymatic Audio LP16 is AWESOME! It took me a while to wrap my head around how to setup multichannel outputs in Hauptwerk, but once I got the hang of it I tried out several setups. I could tell that, with a full set of matching speakers - say, 8-12 channels, by far the most pleasing to me would be using 8-10 mains, and 2 speakers + sub for pedals and just let the Hauptwerk software handle the rest. Breaking them out by division, etc. just isn't necessary I don't believe. Let the software spread the load as best as it can.

4.) The results of all of my speaker builds are in ---- I'm probably going to buy something off the shelf instead of build the 48 main speakers. Don't get me wrong, building the Tuba HT was DEFINITELY worth the time and effort when you compare the performance to the cost, but the other speakers, while they have their applications and are each very good in their own right, are not suited for Hauptwerk use in large spaces.... but could do nicely in homes. Now, it certainly stands to reason that there are other speaker designs out there that will work quite well, but I just haven't found one that really grabbed me. I will still take recommendations if you find something out there you like or believe fits the bill. I found some ideas the other day on Parts Express but I haven't decided if I'll give them a go or not. Stay tuned.

5.) Wet sample sets are deceptively large, muddy, and hard to hear. At least this is the case with Salisbury. Again, this isn't "news." I am simply confirming what you all told me. You just can't beat hearing for yourself. If you take the reverb out (truncate the releases), suddenly you get all the nuance coming through that you didn't hear before - (obviously having all matching main speakers would help this as well....)

Image

Image

Image

I still have concerns about "presence." I know that may be an odd way of describing it, but I'm concerned that if I go with something like the Behringer 2031's, being so high up in the air, I'm afraid the organ will lack clean articulation at the organ bench. This is my main concern at the moment.

On another positive note, though, the congregation is quite enthralled with the "Franken-organ" and are very curious and keen to know more and rallying support for the necessary funding may not be so difficult to achieve.
Drew A. Worthen
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby magnaton » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:31 am

Hi Drew:

Thanks for the update. I have enjoyed keeping up on your project.
dw154515 wrote:3.) The Cymatic Audio LP16 is AWESOME! It took me a while to wrap my head around how to setup multichannel outputs in Hauptwerk, but once I got the hang of it I tried out several setups. I could tell that, with a full set of matching speakers - say, 8-12 channels, by far the most pleasing to me would be using 8-10 mains, and 2 speakers + sub for pedals and just let the Hauptwerk software handle the rest. Breaking them out by division, etc. just isn't necessary I don't believe. Let the software spread the load as best as it can.

Great news on Cymatic Audio. To have 16 channels for $400 is a great deal in my mind!
Using multiple speakers per audio group and choosing an algorithm on how notes and ranks are allocated is very appealing. I use this design as the default for many of my sample sets, however for my 2 go-to classical sets, 1 being Lavender Audio's Armley-Schultze, I did a test with some organ colleagues comparing 8 channels in one group verses 2 channels per organ division. The winner was the latter.

Again this is for my setup in my 27 X 18 basement studio with super dead acoustics. My console sits between 8 active monitors divided left & right, along with 2 large 3 way speakers, and surround speakers. With divisional routing, it was a nice change to hear the Choir division from one side and the Swell from the other. The main comment I received was more clarity and sounds like you removed a blanket! The caveat was a solo stop no longer moves across the speakers as with the original design but it's worth the 'price' for the overall gain in overall sound quality. With the speaker count you are planing (48?), you should be able to have a combination of both.

A couple of other tips (at least to try): Lets say you decide to give 6 channels to the Swell division. Dedicate a separate Swell speaker pair for celeste & supplemental stops, "supplemental" would be those you feel would benefit from a separate channel rather than placed in the mix of the 6. The idea here is the celeste and its unison are always in separate speakers and the undulation happens in the air and not in the speaker drivers. From my experimentation, this design was an immediate, noticeable enhancement. The clarity and warmth really seemed to take hold.

Second tip, consider a pair of speakers dedicated to an En Chamade or big solo reed and put these in a different place maybe in the highest area. Rodgers use to do this with their bigger installs and used Klipsch horn-loaded speakers. Try loading this solo reed as mono and have 2 mono channels in a group and choose the C/C# split as the algorithm. You have now added to the realism of a horizontal reed, on its own independent channels (speakers), that can sit unaffected on top of a large ensemble, in a diatonic chest simulated layout. Add 2 more points to pipe organ realism :D

dw154515 wrote:I still have concerns about "presence." I know that may be an odd way of describing it, but I'm concerned that if I go with something like the Behringer 2031's, being so high up in the air, I'm afraid the organ will lack clean articulation at the organ bench. This is my main concern at the moment.

Check out the PreSonus Eris E5 and E8 monitors. These have been discussed here on the forum and they offer more tone controls than other monitors in their class. So you might be able to adjust the treble (+/- 6db) to compensate for the distance. I personally would love to hear them but no one in my area carries them. The Behringers still win with regards to power (265 watts!) & price value which is why they wind up in so many HW installs.

Danny B.
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