It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:56 am


Large Church Installation - Greenwood UMC - Greenwood, IN

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

dw154515

Member

  • Posts: 439
  • Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:52 pm
  • Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Dec 07, 2016 5:55 pm

I agree with all that has been said. Here are a few more pictures....

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Yes, those long brown boxes at the top are projection screens.

I need to get up there and take some final measurements and get the exact dimensions and some photos.

The current Allen organ speakers are up there.
Last edited by dw154515 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
Offline

jkinkennon

Member

  • Posts: 1208
  • Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 9:43 am
  • Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Dec 07, 2016 9:19 pm

This thread just gets more interesting all the time. That is a huge space behind the altar rail that gets used in very flexible ways it appears. I had no idea there was space to accommodate a band or orchestra.

I also went back and reread the comments about the almost nonexistent reverb time. I'm wondering if you would describe the liveliness (or not) or the acoustic as sufficient to encourage congregational singing? I'm wondering if some subtle surround sound might be needed.

I don't have any new ideas for now but did want to comment on the photos -- and the windows look fantastic!
Plus I finally realized where the organ console is located.
Offline
User avatar

dw154515

Member

  • Posts: 439
  • Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:52 pm
  • Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Dec 07, 2016 9:51 pm

Yes, that is the Crossroads Brass Band (http://crossroadsbrass.org/) in the one photo. They are a community British-style brass band based out of Franklin, IN. We host concerts for them all the time (one coming up next week, actually!) as well as other ensembles in the area. Joyful Sound handbell choir (http://www.joyfulsound.info/) will be performing next week as well.

When I came to this church, the music department had no budget or special events, and the choir was down to about 8 people. (Handbell group was down to 5).

Happy to report that we now have a self-sustaining budget (for the most part) due to the free concert series that we run, utilizing these and other various groups. My fiance has her M.M. in piano, and I have mine in composition. We've done some "showcase" style recitals to generate interest and money. We recently played the piano 4-hand version of Rhapsody in Blue - it was a blast. I am actually working on an arrangement of it for theater organ and piano - which is essentially just reducing the orchestra down to the organ part and leaving the piano part untouched. I want to premier it at the dedication concert for this organ.... SOMEDAY.

Regardless, I enjoy being able to do more than "just" church music. It is nice to be able to give these musicians a "home." Since this congregation is your typical 55+ average age, it means there's still more interest than what I tend to find from MY generation.

That's why a new organ is so desperately needed. It's the one element that is just SERIOUSLY lacking. I LOVE playing organ but in the 4 years I have been with this church, I've touched that Allen.... maybe 5 times. That thing is like trying to wrestle a rabid bear, while balancing on a skateboard, in a swarm of bees, in a minefield.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
Offline

scottherbert

Member

  • Posts: 466
  • Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:22 pm
  • Location: Southern Colorado, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Dec 07, 2016 10:20 pm

Revisiting the Monoprice site, I got to thinking about how the round speakers (with the tweeter in the center) could be an answer. They could be spaced much closer together and provide a much less intrusive bank of speakers in the area indicated by the red arrows. Some have 2 tweeters that can be aimed, I think for stereo, but if the same signal is provided to both, this could be a source of the ambient reflection you desired.

So what about the Allen speakers? What are they like, how do they sound in the building, and where are they mounted? Could you re-use where they are?

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
Offline
User avatar

dw154515

Member

  • Posts: 439
  • Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:52 pm
  • Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 5:33 pm

scottherbert wrote:Revisiting the Monoprice site, I got to thinking about how the round speakers (with the tweeter in the center) could be an answer. They could be spaced much closer together and provide a much less intrusive bank of speakers in the area indicated by the red arrows. Some have 2 tweeters that can be aimed, I think for stereo, but if the same signal is provided to both, this could be a source of the ambient reflection you desired.

So what about the Allen speakers? What are they like, how do they sound in the building, and where are they mounted? Could you re-use where they are?

~Scott


Yes, the round in-ceiling variant are aim-able and could be beneficial. The dual voice coil speakers, on the other hand, I'm not so sure I'd use in this application. I have no real evidence as to why they WOULDN'T work (of course I'm sure they would be just fine) but for the minimal cost difference between them, I'd rather go with pairs of single voice coils. Still, though, the dual voice coils are essentially two speakers in one - they just share a woofer and have dual tweeters - so you could actually run your stereo pairs out of "one speaker." May not be a bad result..... :?:

As for the Allen speakers, I'm not sure of the model numbers or specs. They are old, tattered, and sound terrible. The placement is also really bad. They are just laying up their randomly: some on their backs, some upright, etc. And, there are a couple of either 12" of 15" cabs (I don't remember exactly) and there is a big box of like 4x4 either 5" or 6" drivers.... Some Allen expert could likely shed some light on that thing.

The poor placement really causes a lot of "loud spots" and "soft spots." The hardest place to actually hear the organ is AT THE CONSOLE! It's distracting. They serve no purpose to me in this build.

It should also be pointed out here, that I am intending to leave the current Allen untouched. It will be disconnected and moved into the chapel, or somewhere else, but I have no intention of scrapping it, taking it, converting it, etc. I am leaving it with the church should they ever decide they would rather have it instead of the proposed new Hauptwerk instrument.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
Offline
User avatar

magnaton

Member

  • Posts: 682
  • Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:28 pm
  • Location: Austin, TX

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Dec 08, 2016 11:06 pm

dw154515 wrote:Ok, so now that I'm looking again at MPiercey's Multi Channel Audio thread...

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10333

I'm wondering just how effective that would be in a large space. I use in-walls all the time in my home theater setups, but have never been just blown away by their output, but in really large numbers, that is to say 48 channels, I bet it would be freaking spectacular.


Hey Drew:

Yes, I dig MPiercey's thread too! I found it so clever that I sent the URL to a few organ friends who aren't members of our forum! Would love to try that configuration out myself as I'm quite familiar with Monoprice and it so happens Parts-Express has a decent, affordable 12 channel amplifier. However I feel this works great for a home install. For your church project I'd recommend you continue with your powered studio monitor direction. You'll have greater flexibility on speaker placement and position angles having 48 individual boxes to work with vs large structures of in-wall speakers. Shameless plus here: a single Behringer 2031A has a peak rating of 265 watts. I think using multiple of these should get the sound into the sanctuary. :wink:

Danny B.
Offline

scottherbert

Member

  • Posts: 466
  • Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:22 pm
  • Location: Southern Colorado, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Dec 09, 2016 12:33 pm

Boy, what a quandary! Simple enough solutions aplenty, until the trustees come in. If only they made invisibility cloaks! :?

BIC makes round, in-ceiling speakers with high power handling and extended range, but you still would need amplification. Their only benefit is that they could take up less space, ergo; easier to hide.

Dannys suggestion of the Behringers is still the best and easiest, except for making them invisible! :roll:

Personally, I honestly think the top of the choir lofts (as indicated by your red arrows) is the perfect location. It may be fully visible, but the sound will be projected directly, will be heard at the console, and shouldn't suffer from any unnecessary reflections or refractions. If a compromise MUST be made, perhaps consider reducing the number of channels/speakers, having some do double duty with soft and loud stops? The screen or cloth that hides the speakers can either be contrasting, or matching the wood to make it stand out less. perhaps something that looks like a decorative handrail? A single row of Behringers on each side would only be 16 inches high. See if the Trustees can live with something like that.

We've come a long way on this thread, I'm sure you will come up with something amazing!

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
Offline
User avatar

profeluisegarcia

Member

  • Posts: 844
  • Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:00 pm
  • Location: Manizales, Colombia

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Dec 09, 2016 1:13 pm

scottherbert wrote: The screen or cloth that hides the speakers ...

~Scott


How the thickness of theses cloths may affect the speakers emission of sound, please?
Offline

scottherbert

Member

  • Posts: 466
  • Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:22 pm
  • Location: Southern Colorado, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Dec 09, 2016 3:14 pm

Hola Luis,

The cloth I was thinking of would be speaker cloth, which is supposed to be acoustically "transparent", and so should have no effect on the sound at all. It can be found online by the yard, in many colors and textures.

~Scott

(Oh, y feliz Navidad, amigo mio! :D )
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
Offline

scottherbert

Member

  • Posts: 466
  • Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:22 pm
  • Location: Southern Colorado, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Dec 09, 2016 3:40 pm

Hey Drew,

Another idea just came to mind, although I don't know if it would work. Laying all the speakers behind the wall on their backs, and building a sound reflector to direct the sound into the church. It could be built from thin plywood sheets curved along a frame.

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
Offline
User avatar

organtechnology

Member

  • Posts: 1886
  • Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:58 pm
  • Location: DFW, TX USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Dec 09, 2016 7:52 pm

scottherbert wrote:Hey Drew,

Another idea just came to mind, although I don't know if it would work. Laying all the speakers behind the wall on their backs, and building a sound reflector to direct the sound into the church. It could be built from thin plywood sheets curved along a frame.

~Scott


That works well Scott, if the ports are in the front.

Thomas
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
Offline
User avatar

dw154515

Member

  • Posts: 439
  • Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:52 pm
  • Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Dec 09, 2016 8:12 pm

I just realized just how large this thread has gotten.... maybe a Hauptwerk record? I certainly hope good things come of it, to anyone who comes along! I love the power of the internet. You want to learn something, I'm willing to bet if you're willing to sift through all the garbage, you could just about learn anything you want. What a great age we live in, in many respects.

Anyway, back to the conversation....

magnaton wrote:
dw154515 wrote:Ok, so now that I'm looking again at MPiercey's Multi Channel Audio thread...

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10333

I'm wondering just how effective that would be in a large space. I use in-walls all the time in my home theater setups, but have never been just blown away by their output, but in really large numbers, that is to say 48 channels, I bet it would be freaking spectacular.


Hey Drew:

Yes, I dig MPiercey's thread too! I found it so clever that I sent the URL to a few organ friends who aren't members of our forum! Would love to try that configuration out myself as I'm quite familiar with Monoprice and it so happens Parts-Express has a decent, affordable 12 channel amplifier. However I feel this works great for a home install. For your church project I'd recommend you continue with your powered studio monitor direction. You'll have greater flexibility on speaker placement and position angles having 48 individual boxes to work with vs large structures of in-wall speakers. Shameless plus here: a single Behringer 2031A has a peak rating of 265 watts. I think using multiple of these should get the sound into the sanctuary. :wink:

Danny B.


I would agree with this, for the most part. I would fear, however, that if you "funneled" the sound too much it might sound a little (and do pardon the term) "horny." I understand where you're coming from. I think for the amount of work involved, building a simple stand, or long shelf-type-of-thing for all of the Behringer monitors would be easiest.

Again, this is still purely hypothetical without the powers that be getting involved.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
Offline

jkinkennon

Member

  • Posts: 1208
  • Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 9:43 am
  • Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 12:17 pm

I certainly hope that Behringer will continue to produce the 2031A's, not that similar studio monitors couldn't work just as well. My 3031A's with the kevlar cones and ribbon tweeters have been discontinued.

The inaugural Lessons & Carols service for the St. Barnabas install exceeded my expectations in every way. That's with a dozen 2031A's and the Tuba HT as previously described. Dr. Jeannine Jordan was at the organ along with our own Tweedle Dee on choir accompaniments and at the Moeller pipe organ, yes, for organ duet accompaniments. The Postlude was Prelude, Fugue, and Chaconne -- Diedrich Buxtehude.

The sound with the Velesovo dry samples was totally convincing to my ears. I had thought the presence of a large crowd might dampen the power and brightness of the instrument but that wasn't the case. I mention this as encouragement for Drew to use one or two Tuba HT's and plenty of studio monitors. It has worked well now for two area churches though neither is as large a space as he needs to deal with.
Offline
User avatar

magnaton

Member

  • Posts: 682
  • Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:28 pm
  • Location: Austin, TX

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 3:49 pm

jkinkennon wrote:I certainly hope that Behringer will continue to produce the 2031A's, not that similar studio monitors couldn't work just as well. My 3031A's with the kevlar cones and ribbon tweeters have been discontinued.

I agree. They discontinued the passive versions (2031P) as well. I'm guessing from a marketing standpoint its based to number of units being sold.

I've seen glowing reviews for the JBL LSR308 monitors. It is now the same price as the 2031A but the output wattage is much less compared to the 2031As

Danny B..
Offline
User avatar

dw154515

Member

  • Posts: 439
  • Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:52 pm
  • Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Dec 12, 2016 10:25 pm

jkinkennon wrote:I certainly hope that Behringer will continue to produce the 2031A's, not that similar studio monitors couldn't work just as well. My 3031A's with the kevlar cones and ribbon tweeters have been discontinued.

The inaugural Lessons & Carols service for the St. Barnabas install exceeded my expectations in every way. That's with a dozen 2031A's and the Tuba HT as previously described. Dr. Jeannine Jordan was at the organ along with our own Tweedle Dee on choir accompaniments and at the Moeller pipe organ, yes, for organ duet accompaniments. The Postlude was Prelude, Fugue, and Chaconne -- Diedrich Buxtehude.

The sound with the Velesovo dry samples was totally convincing to my ears. I had thought the presence of a large crowd might dampen the power and brightness of the instrument but that wasn't the case. I mention this as encouragement for Drew to use one or two Tuba HT's and plenty of studio monitors. It has worked well now for two area churches though neither is as large a space as he needs to deal with.


This is fantastic news! I love that we have been able to exchange some ideas and hopefully be of mutual benefit to one another, and perhaps even to countless other folks reading these threads.

magnaton wrote:
jkinkennon wrote:I certainly hope that Behringer will continue to produce the 2031A's, not that similar studio monitors couldn't work just as well. My 3031A's with the kevlar cones and ribbon tweeters have been discontinued.

I agree. They discontinued the passive versions (2031P) as well. I'm guessing from a marketing standpoint its based to number of units being sold.

I've seen glowing reviews for the JBL LSR308 monitors. It is now the same price as the 2031A but the output wattage is much less compared to the 2031As

Danny B..


Since I'm planning for 48 channels, I'm less concerned about wattage. I would however like to find a place that stocks both the Behringer and JBL to hear them side-by-side. Unfortunately, Guitar Center doesn't stock Behringer products (at least not this one near me). Maybe Sam Ash?

As I've mentioned before, I work for an A/V company by day doing commercial systems - some of which are performance halls, public venues, lecture halls, etc. Well, my project has gotten the interest of a few people in my company and they are a great source of information. The engineering team is a great deal of help when working through the logistics of what products to buy, and compatibility. Most helpful, though, may just be my boss. He spent the better part of his career tuning concert halls and doing acoustic treatments in them, and has worked in some of the best performance halls in the world, including the Sydney opera house. He and I are sitting down this coming week so I can bounce some ideas off of him, and also get him involved in the final installation and tuning of the audio system.

Also, I've spoken to the head of the trustees and we've agreed to meet right at the first of the year to see what kind of resources we need to get together to get this thing funded. I've reached the point where I'm just about at a standstill, stuck in a sea of "hypothetical possibilities," that will likely be resolved once I find out what can be afforded, and what is acceptable aesthetically.

All that being said, minus any contractor and electrician expenses that may come up, I've calculated all of my equipment and gear, and it comes out to about $22,000. Almost $13,000 is the audio system. Having gotten the deal of a lifetime on that old Allen console, that really helped with the budget! All that's needed are a few items from MGB and we are in business. I think I have decided to forgo the iStop or eStop things, as well as the lit rocker tabs due to cost and complexity. I am looking at Planar touch screens instead. Since I work for a pro A/V company, and since I own a small residential A/V business on the side, I can buy a lot of this stuff at cost - the pro audio stuff (Behringer and MOTU) I'm not sure I have access to.

Here is my updated wiring legend for the organ (minus the speakers which will just be coming out of the MOTU's)

https://www.lucidchart.com/publicSegments/view/52ad0b99-e1c9-4ec7-b936-fe0a90770ec5

The 3 Shielded Cat6 cables will be the snake that runs from the console back to the rack closet (room underneath where the speakers are going). I will likely use a custom-made 3-port Cat6 patch plate and Ethercon connectors for reliability.

Image
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
PreviousNext

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests