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Large Church Installation - Greenwood UMC - Greenwood, IN

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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Mar 10, 2016 11:57 am

I will focus more on the console later.

For now, I am focused on the audio system. This is, after all, the "Amplification" section. :wink:

magnaton wrote:Regarding speakers, you will be given lots advise and opinions here. I'm not familiar how a line array will sound with HW. Since you are almost finished with the TALH Pros you'll soon be finding out. Is one speaker array with the 16 drivers just one channel? If so, I would consider building several of these or better yet make them 1/2 sizes (8 drivers) if that is feasible so you can have more channels.

~Danny B.


Danny B. has intrigued me with this comment. I'm wondering what the results would be if I basically split each of these TLAH arrays in half - but still in the same housing. In other words, what would happen if I used one TLAH Pro, but the four upper drivers and piezos were essentially one channel, and the bottom four were another audio channel.

I'm thinking that if it's divided this way, maybe route certain pitches (Say, all C's and G's) to the full TLAH, but the top half handles a certain number of ranks (say, all principals), and the bottom half handles a different number of ranks (say, reeds)? Then, on they opposite speaker, you'd have the sharps of those notes - on a completely different TLAH, but configured the same way. Maybe this illustration will clarify....

Image

Yes, it will change the impedance, but that's no big deal. Thoughts?
Last edited by dw154515 on Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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engrssc

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Mar 10, 2016 1:07 pm

You might want to do a prototype of sorts before committing to it in a permanent install. There are some variables to consider. I've found the idea of spreading the sound (vs concentrating the sound) esp in a large space seems to add to the realism.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Mar 10, 2016 1:22 pm

My understanding of a line array is a large number of drivers to project the sound deeper into a large space with a given amount of power, and a wider spread. I am not sure that splitting the designated number of drivers in half will achieve what the TLAH was designed for. I, personally, would build a seperate set just for the reeds and place them in a different location to give a broader sound stage.

Just my 2 pence,
~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Mar 10, 2016 1:28 pm

Just to add to what Ed wrote, consider a seperate speaker set for Principals, Reeds, and Flutes spread across the loft. Separation allows each one to do one thing more clearly than having to do everything at once. A lesson that the late Leo Christopher taught us.

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Mar 10, 2016 2:06 pm

Ed, no part of this is final at this stage - everything is always a prototype or experiment in my mind. :lol:

I would agree that the only real benefit of my previous idea was that it would drastically cut cost and the number of speakers. (But at $300 a pair, you really can't complain about cost!) I agree that more is always better, in terms of speakers. Not more volume, necessarily, but more speakers mean more separation. More clarity. Less distortion.

Just a thought. I appreciate all of the feedback.

And since I seem to have a few folks on this thread with audio experience, if you look at the Trio12 BIB sub, what are your initial reactions to the idea of turning that thing into a 3 way speaker? I wonder what that would do. Or, would it benefit from just having a TLAH, Trio12 BIB, and TubaHT as a single channel, just crossed over at different frequencies to distribute the sound to the various drivers?
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostThu Mar 10, 2016 5:43 pm

Well, since you ask, I HATE 3 way, and even 2 way speaker designs. In my humble opinion, crossovers do nothing but distort the music in JUST the wrong place! My personal preference is for a quality full range driver with a sub, like those found on the Decware site, but that doesn't help you very much.

I would carefully look at a line array using a quality full range speaker, like the PS95-8 from Parts Express ($22.25 for 4 or more). The reviews are glowing, and they go down to 100 Hz as a single, however in the line array, multiple speakers act like a single, larger speaker, so the low end may be lower! There would be no need for the midrange/woofers AND the tweeter, since this single driver handles from 100Hz to 25kHz. They have larger ones too, but at drastically higher prices.

Sorry for my rant. Most people don't notice what a crossover does to music, but I do. If it's in the very low or very high range, well, maybe. But when they put it in the middle where the music lives (2kHz to 6kHz), that's when it gets ugly. :evil:

That's my opinion anyway.
~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Mar 11, 2016 5:14 pm

scottherbert wrote:Well, since you ask, I HATE 3 way, and even 2 way speaker designs. In my humble opinion, crossovers do nothing but distort the music in JUST the wrong place! My personal preference is for a quality full range driver with a sub, like those found on the Decware site, but that doesn't help you very much.

I would carefully look at a line array using a quality full range speaker, like the PS95-8 from Parts Express ($22.25 for 4 or more). The reviews are glowing, and they go down to 100 Hz as a single, however in the line array, multiple speakers act like a single, larger speaker, so the low end may be lower! There would be no need for the midrange/woofers AND the tweeter, since this single driver handles from 100Hz to 25kHz. They have larger ones too, but at drastically higher prices.

Sorry for my rant. Most people don't notice what a crossover does to music, but I do. If it's in the very low or very high range, well, maybe. But when they put it in the middle where the music lives (2kHz to 6kHz), that's when it gets ugly. :evil:

That's my opinion anyway.
~Scott


Perhaps, but how in the world could you get away with doing a pipe organ emulation without a crossover in there somewhere? I don't think that's humanly possible.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Mar 11, 2016 5:27 pm

L C R crossovers, IMO. aren't as useful as 3 way electronic which of course require 3 separate power amplifiers, extra wiring and such per "speaker". But such crossovers can be controlled much better. And of course, you need proper compatible speakers not to mention some extra $$$. :roll:

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Mar 11, 2016 11:20 pm

Concentrate on a minimum of 8 to maybe a maximum of 12 channels total of audio with adequate power, split the ranks based on timbre, stack the speakers left and right and you'll be just fine. :wink:

Marc
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSat Mar 12, 2016 6:04 am

Many times one of the biggest issues for a church install is not so much the tech stuff, but rather blending the speaker systems into the existing architecture of the sanctuary esp where no obvious provisions have been made previously. I just "walked away" from a project where the only suitable location for 8 speaker systems was off limits (holy of holy's) and the suggested location (by the "organ" committee) was way too small for the space to be covered.. It could accommodate maybe 3 small spkr cabinets with no greater than 8" spkrs. :(
Even my most creative juices stopped flowing. Hopefully someone else can come up with a solution.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSat Mar 12, 2016 11:23 am

These speakers are placed in the organ case of a hybrid organ. It is a stereo Setup.

http://www.compoundsound.nl/paround-300.html

The dimensions of the church building are 50 x 30 metres with a height of about 30 meters. Also the Tower of about 60 metres high is part of the Church Hall.

The speakers are able to fill the space with a natural organ sound!
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSat Mar 12, 2016 12:27 pm

Further speaker thoughts re hiding them or not. I remember a few things from a design course I took years ago. That being the prof stated many times, if you can't do a good job of hiding a necessary element, then flaunt it. As I said previously, speaker type, number and placement are very important issues. Thinking further, I would tend to explore the possibility of constructing 2 pipe (type) chambers on either side of the stained glass window - reaching up to the ceiling peak.

Now details in various versions, these "chambers" (which would provide, each side, a defined space for multiple speaker systems) could be covered with a grill cloth type fabric (that would not restrict sound, esp highs).

Another version would be to build vertical (stationary) louvers with something like 1" X 4" hardwood which can be stained appropriately. These would need some bracing at intervals to keep them from sympathetically vibrating. The angle would be fixed so that the opening(s) would face (each) to the opposite rear corner(s) of the santuary. In other words, there would be a directed crossing of the sound (sources) which would provide air mixing. Even tho the sanctuary may appear to be dry, the above method allows the room's natural acoustics to "fashion" the sound.

Now, expanding this chamber idea, in place of the stationary louvers, an enclosed chamber within the above would house the speakers of the swell division - with - and this is the bigger picture - air operated movable, real swell shades controlled by the console's expression pedals. The enclosed speaker's volume would be fixed at proper full volume just as if they were real pipes. Any unenclosed ranks (speaker systems) would be installed outside of these swell chambers.also just as if they were real pipes. Having speakers in real swell chambers with real movable shutters adds a dimension that just can't really be duplicated by software.

Now for the final "cream on the pudding" which probably at this the thought comes, "No way, too much, etc.,
if enough room were available in the "chamber's", some day in the distant future, a few ranks of real wind blown pipes could be added. That's a real biggy, but it is possible, maybe as a reverse built hybrid? :o

If nothing else, such ideas, such as these, are the basis for dream type wishful thinking.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSat Mar 12, 2016 6:38 pm

Drew, you ask how can one do away with crossovers with pipe organ emulation? It can be done with multiple amplification. Some speakers are bi-amplified, that is a seperate amplifier for the bass and the tweeter, without a crossover. Each is allowed to roll off naturally and allow the other to take over. This could be done easily with your CSS trio subs (if they reach up to 100Hz or more) allowing them to roll off and the line array to start from there (wherever they start at) on up.

If you wish to use a crossover in the low range (200Hz or less) it probably won't be at all noticeable. Where they are bad is in the midrange, say from 1kHz to, I don't know, 7 or 8kHz. I don't really like them anywhere up from 100Hz. That is where music lives! In the middle.

There is a video somewhere, I don't know where, concerning organs and speakers. The poster demonstrates what happens to the timbre of a principal, for instance, if you take out 2kHz, and then 3kHz. It loses it's character. He does this with several stops.

I, personally, have heard the difference in home stereo speakers playing the same material (vocals with solo violin) compared side by side with a high quality 2 way speaker, and a good full range single speaker. When I heard what I had been missing, I was sold!!!

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSun Mar 13, 2016 8:39 pm

scottherbert wrote:This could be done easily with your CSS trio subs (if they reach up to 100Hz or more) allowing them to roll off and the line array to start from there (wherever they start at) on up.

If you wish to use a crossover in the low range (200Hz or less) it probably won't be at all noticeable. Where they are bad is in the midrange, say from 1kHz to, I don't know, 7 or 8kHz. I don't really like them anywhere up from 100Hz. That is where music lives! In the middle.


I like this. The line arrays supposedly extend easily down to the 50Hz range, and the Trio12 BIB is certainly capable of 100Hz, no problem.

More to the point, however, I like the full range Dayton Audio driver that was mentioned earlier.

I'm wondering what the result would be building a line array out of nothing but those....? 8)
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Mar 14, 2016 1:57 pm

Don't forget-- that if you prefer wetter samplesets for their tonal character, you can truncate the releases to better fit your room.
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