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Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

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scottherbert

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Mar 14, 2016 8:54 pm

Hi Drew,
I don't know where you are on the build of your TLAHs, or if you have purchased any drivers yet, but if you are considering the Dayton full range driver, consider this. You could build 1 TLAH with the Dayton full range, and 1 with the original drivers (if you have them already) and do a side-by-side comparison. You did say you like to experiment, didn't you?

I am unfamiliar with the 'interiors' of the TLAH, baffles and such, but it seems that it would be fairly simple to change out the front panel of the 'loser' of the comparison, to fit the drivers of the winner. You might even get a decent comparison with only 4 drivers per side, to give you an idea, to save some money before you get the 8.

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 12:12 am

scottherbert wrote:Hi Drew,
I don't know where you are on the build of your TLAHs, or if you have purchased any drivers yet, but if you are considering the Dayton full range driver, consider this. You could build 1 TLAH with the Dayton full range, and 1 with the original drivers (if you have them already) and do a side-by-side comparison. You did say you like to experiment, didn't you?

I am unfamiliar with the 'interiors' of the TLAH, baffles and such, but it seems that it would be fairly simple to change out the front panel of the 'loser' of the comparison, to fit the drivers of the winner. You might even get a decent comparison with only 4 drivers per side, to give you an idea, to save some money before you get the 8.

~Scott



Actually, the TLAH pro's are finished.

Image
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My initial thoughts:

I need a bigger garage. These things are definitely not meant for "up close" listening, obviously. And, since it's midnight, I'm sure my neighbors wouldn't be to thrilled about me raising the garage door and walking across the street to listen to 8' Diapason samples. :lol: They don't know what they're missing.

Initially, I like them. I will have a more committed attitude towards them once I get them into the sanctuary and actually play some samples through them in that large space.

Until then, however, I am really intrigued by this full range driver idea. Undoubtedly, it would be easy to replace the existing 8" drivers with those, and just disconnect the Piezo tweeters for the sake of comparison. Still, though, that's a lot of wasted drivers one way or the other. Eh, you only live once, right?
Last edited by dw154515 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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organtechnology

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 1:53 am

Hi,

I really think you could benefit from a 1/24th octave RTA and calibrated microphone. The TrueRTA at 1/24th octave (https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm) and the calibrated mic that Parts Express sells(http://www.parts-express.com/behringer- ... e--248-625) are a good backup for your senses. They will not tell you what sounds good but they will tell you what sounding good looks like in the audio spectrum.

I used mine in temporarily voicing a small storefront church with 2x BX5a and a BX10 subwoofer. The organist did the voicing I just helped with the computer and RTA.

Thomas
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound MEngines, Dante Audio for Home or Church.
info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavedar Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
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engrssc

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 3:44 am

Totally agree with Thomas regarding the use of an RTA. For those who wonder about all this alphabet (soup), a RTA is a Real Time Analyzer. As the name implies, this device gives you a snapshot (in Real Time) of the room involved in more "scientific" way or maybe better said, a base (not bass) line. Ears are still needed ultimately but they are somewhat subjective depending on whose ears are being used along with the age of the 'user". :roll:

As an experiment a while ago, I finished voicing an organ and saved the result in one of the Hauptwerk "versions" while a professional sound guy voiced the same organ in the same sanctuary and saved those results. Quite a difference even tho all things were effectively equal.

Rgds,
Ed
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 6:40 am

I've looked into and tried full range drivers but wasn't sure I liked the outcome that well. They all seem to have a very jagged frequency response with a big ~10 db notch around 1-3 KHZ and then again a bit further up. I've read of people installing filters to correct this, but then again you might as well use a crossover.

Also although I really like the idea of using them, I have to wonder if it's really an advantage, as it means the diaphragm / voice coil will have to be moving that many more frequencies at the same time. To be honest I don't know how they do it as well as they do. This is one area where technology has not kept up to improve much. The voice coil driver has been around since the early inception of audio amplification.

Eric
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scottherbert

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 10:09 am

I appreciate your experience Eric, but it is unfair to paint all full range drivers with one paint brush. True, quite a few are notorious for their "midrange shout" that you refer to, but I have auditioned some that were in open baffle arrangements that, when I closed my eyes, made me feel like I was in front of a live orchestra!!! But at $600 each I don't think those would be in Drews' budget.

While it is true that some other technologies can do this better, like planar, or electrostatic, there is the price point to consider. A church installation of Magnapans would not only be less than practical, the cost would be astronomical!!! But I bet it would sure sound good. :wink:

The driver I mentioned to Drew is dead flat in response from about 100Hz to about 17kHz, where it starts to get a little jagged (like most speakers) on up to 25kHz. No shout indicated, which is why it gets so many glowing reviews, and why I mentioned it to Drew. Also, it's only 22 bucks!

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 10:45 am

Scott,

When you say the driver you mentioned is flat to 17K, is this from experience? I just looked at the graph again from PE and it has a large notch right at 1K and then bounces from there on up. This looks very typical of the various ones I've looked at the graphs of.

The ones I tried were 8" Audio Nirvana units. The sound they gave was quite nasal in the midrange and the highs very beamy which I would expect from the large diaphragm.

If the small ones are as good as you say, I would be tempted to try several of them.

Eric
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 11:11 am

I don't think there's a way to avoid beaming with the full range drivers in the usual front facing installation. That's exactly opposite of the wider dispersion we would prefer for organ speakers. It is possible to get better control of the crossover characteristics with bi-amping where the crossover can be accomplished in the digital domain. That's if you really can't find speakers where the crossover region sounds transparent.

I wish you could visit Brooke's installation at his church in Portland. He has achieved a remarkable sound in a sanctuary with plenty of early sound reflections but a very short sustained acoustic due to the medium size sanctuary. This with plenty of conventional Behringer 2031A's and, as I recall, a number of 8 to 10" speakers plus subs.
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scottherbert

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 2:47 pm

Eric, BOY DID I MAKE A MISTAKE!!! Thanks for catching me on that one! I've been looking at so many of those for so long, I went from memory (not a good idea in my case). It is interesting to note that none of the reviewers felt that was a problem, rather they said that "vocals were best ever", and "holografic imaging", as well as "speakers seamed to disappear". It was statements like that that caused me to recommend it to Drew.

I knew that Drew needed an ECONOMICAL driver, and remembered the good reviews of that one. As I mentioned, MY favorite is the FRX2, runs about $600 apiece, but that is for in-home listening in an open baffle design.

With regards to 'beaminess', with what I understand of line array theory, the sound waves of the multiple drivers stacked on top of each other tend to 'squash', or flatten each other, thus creating a wider sound field. Another feature of this particular driver, was good off-axis clarity already. So the only real answer would be experimenting with it. Indeed, it may NOT sound good at all, but perhaps it could sound very good, and a new star will be born. :roll:

We all have opinions, and as I have stated several times before, few things stir so many DIFFERENT opinions as speakers!!! Only the listener has the last word.

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 3:46 pm

I appreciate the responses from everyone. Some of what has been said is, to me, obvious (like using an RTA, etc.) because, like I said, I work in audio and video for a living. Before this, I sold Hi-Fi. So, most of what I'm doing is enjoying the experimentation. And, simply put, it's just that - an experiment.

I've used/sold Maggies, Martin Logan, Def Tech/GoldenEar, Vienna Acoustics, KEF, Paradigm, Klipsch (Reference and Commercial), etc..... I actually own a pair of GoldenEar Triton II's that I REALLY enjoy. But those aren't suited for church organ installations.

Regardless, I appreciate the input, folks.

What custom speaker designs have you guys actually used/built/installed?

Maybe I'm letting my imagination get the best of me. I mean, most Allen and Rodgers speakers that I've seen installed are very basic - a 12" woofer and a horn or tweeter. Maybe that's the extent of what is necessary?
Last edited by dw154515 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Romanos

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 4:02 pm

1961TC4ME wrote:Concentrate on a minimum of 8 to maybe a maximum of 12 channels total of audio with adequate power, split the ranks based on timbre, stack the speakers left and right and you'll be just fine. :wink:

Marc


Maximum of 12?! That's hardly anything at all for a church! I have 10 at home! :)

But seriously- 12 doesn't seem all that many for a church. Although, it would be a lot with speaker arrays as have been previously discussed. Perhaps that half-array idea previously discussed would help while keeping costs manageable. Either way-- having even arrays split in half will still theoretically spin circles around single drivers for each signal.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 4:14 pm

scottherbert wrote:Drew, you ask how can one do away with crossovers with pipe organ emulation? It can be done with multiple amplification. Some speakers are bi-amplified, that is a seperate amplifier for the bass and the tweeter, without a crossover. Each is allowed to roll off naturally and allow the other to take over. This could be done easily with your CSS trio subs (if they reach up to 100Hz or more) allowing them to roll off and the line array to start from there (wherever they start at) on up.

If you wish to use a crossover in the low range (200Hz or less) it probably won't be at all noticeable. Where they are bad is in the midrange, say from 1kHz to, I don't know, 7 or 8kHz. I don't really like them anywhere up from 100Hz. That is where music lives! In the middle.

There is a video somewhere, I don't know where, concerning organs and speakers. The poster demonstrates what happens to the timbre of a principal, for instance, if you take out 2kHz, and then 3kHz. It loses it's character. He does this with several stops.

I, personally, have heard the difference in home stereo speakers playing the same material (vocals with solo violin) compared side by side with a high quality 2 way speaker, and a good full range single speaker. When I heard what I had been missing, I was sold!!!

~Scott


There are great crown amplifiers that allow you to run stereo or switch to "dual mono" where you can set a crossover digitally between the two signals (converting the stereo amp into a "single" ie- L or R amp). These essentially allow you to have one drive your woofers and another drive your tweeters. Such amps would be perfect for the line arrays... you'd simply need one amp per array. They sell them in any flavor (read:power) you like.
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 4:40 pm

Scott,

For wider HF dispersion those little drivers would do much better than the 8" ones I tried. They won't handle an 8' stop on their own though, maybe a number of them in a line array would. I had thought of maybe trying them for higher pitched stops, I'd like to really increase my audio channels here at home. As I mentioned before, I'm use to how pipes mix and are omnidirectional. My main concern though about the uneven frequency response is, that they would skew the sound. Say you use one for a 4' stop. One can adjust the volume of each note to compensate, but the harmonic structure would be altered to different degrees depending on where the note's frequencies fall vs the freq. response curve of the driver.

I may do some experimenting of my own at some point. It would be nice though if someone could come up with an excellent, inexpensive design, to have many audio channels in a home environment.

Eric
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Romanos

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 4:48 pm

Regarding the array-- I also wonder for experiment sake if this would broaden the sound or maim it:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1678/25190987353_6eeb7218de_z.jpg
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scottherbert

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 5:38 pm

Romanos, I like your idea for the Crown amps! That's the ticket. The line array arrangement you propose, however, kind of goes against the 'line array theory'. While it might work for a regular speaker arrangement, if the idea is to get the full 'line array effect', I think they have to be all pulling together.

Eric, I completely agree with you on the idea of omnidirectional sound! If I could find just the right driver (i.e. something small, inexpensive, PERFECT sound) I would try mounting them in something like a tube and have the driver pointing at the ceiling, perhaps with a dispersion cone over it similar to the Compound Sound speakers that PCM has mentioned. A group of those, left and right, for various stops, would surely give a diffuse sound field. At least in my imagination in does! :mrgreen:

I don't have any experience with installing church sound systems. I used to work with them, but have much more experience with real pipes. The fact is, since I was hurt 35 years ago I haven't done anything but research stuff online. My wife got me my Hauptwerk system to get me playing again, and it has been great therapy!

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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