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Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby jwillans » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:30 pm

Great thread and fantastic to see the project accumulate in such an event - one of the genuinely interesting topics on the forum. It would be marvellous to hear more people talk about their individual and church projects in this way to both as a means of promoting Hauptwerk and learning from one another. While these types of threads were once the staple content of the forum in the past, they seem to have diminished significantly in recent times.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby mrkniz » Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:04 pm

Heartiest congratulations to Drew and company on this very successful Hauptwerk installation. It's incredible how much a Hauptwerk organ can do, do it so well, and for such a relatively small amount of money. Of course, as Drew pointed out to me after the concert, most of the labor is free (as we all know well :D.)

I sat in the first row next to Ed who I really enjoyed meeting. I've been reading his posts for years, and I was so happy to find out he wasn't a dog :lol:! Seriously, we had a great conversation and I gained great insights from him in just those few minutes.

As to the concert itself, the players were superb. Like Ed, I had trouble hearing some of the very soft passages, and in general, I thought the organ could have been louder. This could have been because of the full church, or it could have been my hearing, which at 79 isn't what it used to be. I did take issue with the Fugue in G Minor (the Great) which I thought was treated more like a chamber music piece than the massive work it is. On the other hand, it was played flawlessly.

I'm now on my way back to my home in NJ. I'm so glad I made the trip--it was well worth the effort! Ken Zink
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:18 pm

mrkniz wrote:I sat in the first row next to Ed who I really enjoyed meeting. I've been reading his posts for years, and I was so happy to find out he wasn't a dog :lol: ! Seriously, we had a great conversation and I gained great insights from him in just those few minutes.


It was great to meet Ken as well. Not sure how many other HW folks were at the concert as I had to leave shortly after it was over. One reason, I brought my dog "Mackie" - (a Cairn Terrior) along and she stayed in the car (and slept) during the concert. We've had her now 15 years and she is a great (traveling) companion esp since my wife of 52 years passed last January. As I wrote to Drew, we left home at 7:30 AM and got back at 10:30 PM. A round trip of (exactly) 600 miles. I had to get back to play for for the AM service. As far as Mackie is concerned, we get along very well. She's my dog, and I'm her human. :)

Rgds,
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:44 pm

mrkniz wrote:Heartiest congratulations to Drew and company on this very successful Hauptwerk installation. It's incredible how much a Hauptwerk organ can do, do it so well, and for such a relatively small amount of money. Of course, as Drew pointed out to me after the concert, most of the labor is free (as we all know well :D.)

I sat in the first row next to Ed who I really enjoyed meeting. I've been reading his posts for years, and I was so happy to find out he wasn't a dog :lol:! Seriously, we had a great conversation and I gained great insights from him in just those few minutes.

As to the concert itself, the players were superb. Like Ed, I had trouble hearing some of the very soft passages, and in general, I thought the organ could have been louder. This could have been because of the full church, or it could have been my hearing, which at 79 isn't what it used to be. I did take issue with the Fugue in G Minor (the Great) which I thought was treated more like a chamber music piece than the massive work it is. On the other hand, it was played flawlessly.

I'm now on my way back to my home in NJ. I'm so glad I made the trip--it was well worth the effort! Ken Zink


Thank you, Ken. I appreciate the comments. And just to clarify, ALL of the labor was free. :lol:

As for the softness, I have noticed when the church is full, it's hard to hear the softer voices - such as the lovely 4' flute in the Dupre, and the soft strings on the Reuter during the Sowerby and Hebbel pieces. When I'm in there alone, it's lovely as is. This was the first time I had a "full house" to play soft music for. I notice the same effect on hymn accompaniments, though it's still quite filling. When you add 250+ people, the ambient noise goes up considerably. I have several "take away" notes from this experience that I will be working through.

As for your comments regarding the "Great" Fugue, I must point out that Marko (organist) is, as I eluded to when I introduced him, a phenomenal player who's never, and I do mean NEVER interested in flamboyance or showmanship over musical integrity. He tried fuller registrations and the like, but settled on this. To his quite highly-developed ear, having played this actual Silbermann instrument before, as well as the Freiberg cathedral on a few occasions, he preferred the lighter registrations. Perhaps if the samples were a little drier, he would have preferred a fuller registration. His main critiques of the instrument was in the articulation and responsiveness of the console. (A valid point that I happen to agree with. Perhaps a dryer sample (the dry Freiberg is TOO dry), and more responsive touch from the console) and a fuller registration would no doubt have been used. All great learning points for me in this process. I attend as many of his performances as I can in Indy - on both organ and bayan - and, I swear, in the 8 or so years I've known the man, I don't think I've heard a single note he's played be out of place. Always masterfully done. His registration choice also reflects his personality - brilliant yet understated.

I am very glad everyone made it and, perhaps more importantly, seem to have made it home safe and sound! I encourage you all to join the mailing list on our music department website and check this forum thread regularly for new concert announcements.

I have some great things I'm working on for the near future.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:40 pm

dw154515 wrote:As for the softness, I have noticed when the church is full, it's hard to hear the softer voices - such as the lovely 4' flute in the Dupre, and the soft strings on the Reuter during the Sowerby and Hebbel pieces. When I'm in there alone, it's lovely as is. This was the first time I had a "full house" to play soft music for. I notice the same effect on hymn accompaniments, though it's still quite filling. When you add 250+ people, the ambient noise goes up considerably. I have several "take away" notes from this experience that I will be working through.


Ken and I were discussing this as well. Wondering if in part, that "effect" is due to the fact that the speakers are "up behind" on the back wall with the building "structure" in between the speakers and the listener's ears. I especially noticed this with the Armley sample set which is our primary/main organ and with which I am quite familiar. On the way home with time to think, I came up with this hugely ambitious (for you) thought. If you got some real pipes for a facade and mounted the speakers up front directly behind these fake pipes? So in effect the speakers would "speak" more directly into the auditorium. 8)

I mentioned to Ken, even tho the sound was clean, etc, it seemed as tho there was "something" like a vail of sorts between us and the speakers. Effect - the sound was a bit duller than I am used to hearing esp with A/S. Not sure how much of this could be corrected thru voicing. But it is easy to clone (and paste) the existing settings to another of Hauptwerk's configurations without changing what is now existing, then experimenting with the alternate (cloned) configuration.

I ran into a situation a while back where a wanna be do gooder :roll: replaced the acoustically transparent black grill cloth on the front of the (speaker) chambers with regular material. Guess they didn't like the black. Quite suddenly the organ lacking the high end sounded like it was being played far away. Of course that was an extreme example. I suppose if a person really wanted to see if this was the case, a significant amount of speakers could be (temporarily) moved right up to the front edge so the speaker fronts would actually be seen in the auditorium. (This just for an experiment). I'm guessing, any given organ would sound a bit brighter.

An easier to do experiment would be to have an organist play the same music and make a quality recording of it directly up in front of the speakers and then record this same music in the auditorium at typical ear level. Listening to each recording (A/B) with a good set of cans might be useful in determining what might be happening maybe?

The problem, the higher the frequency, the easier it is to blocked, diverted and absorbed. And the highs are a significant part of such as the presence effect as you know. You can pretty much place a sub anywhere with not much of an issue. OTOH, with the video screens down, all bets are off.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby mrkniz » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:58 am

First of all, I meant no offense with my remark about the G Minor Fugue. It was just that I had never heard it played so delicately, and was a bit startled by it. If any offense was taken, I do apologize.

The problem the higher the frequency, the easier it is to block/divert them


Last summer I visited Thomas Gentry of Organtechnology in Plano, TX, and he told me how many db's in the highs are lost per meter of travel. (I forget the exact number, but it was substantial.) If I remember correctly, he even suggested that one might experiment with placing at least some organ speakers along the sides of the church to minimize the loss to the congregation. Also, I have read on this forum about placing speakers in the rear of the church--a mixdown of front channels--to supplement the highs that have been lost from those channels. I remember that the volume of the rear speakers should just barely audible so they are not perceived as 'surround sound'.

Uh-oh. I see another Pandora's box being opened. I wonder what we'll be discussing on page 56 :D!
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:03 am

Maybe on the next instrument, Ed. What’s done here is done. I’m quite happy as is - enough to not want to do it all over again. As for the facade, though it would be lovely I don’t know that I care to try and “convince” anyone it’s anything other than what it is. I’m perfectly proud of it being a Hauptwerk instrument.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:04 am

Absolutely no offense at all, Ken. I do understand your impression - it was mine as well initially.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:09 am

dw154515 wrote:I’m perfectly proud of it being a Hauptwerk instrument.


Wasn't trying to be critical of all of your excellent efforts. Just curious to figure out what both Ken and I seem to have heard. And I know very well how esp these Hauptwerk projects can keep going.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby organtechnology » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:36 am

mrkniz wrote:First of all, I meant no offense with my remark about the G Minor Fugue. It was just that I had never heard it played so delicately, and was a bit startled by it. If any offense was taken, I do apologize.

The problem the higher the frequency, the easier it is to block/divert them


Last summer I visited Thomas Gentry of Organtechnology in Plano, TX, and he told me how many db's in the highs are lost per meter of travel. (I forget the exact number, but it was substantial.) If I remember correctly, he even suggested that one might experiment with placing at least some organ speakers along the sides of the church to minimize the loss to the congregation. Also, I have read on this forum about placing speakers in the rear of the church--a mixdown of front channels--to supplement the highs that have been lost from those channels. I remember that the volume of the rear speakers should just barely audible so they are not perceived as 'surround sound'.

Uh-oh. I see another Pandora's box being opened. I wonder what we'll be discussing on page 56 :D!


Hi,
I believe I was talking about latency not frequency response. SPL does fall off by half every time the distance doubles and some judicious use of speakers with the sound delayed can be used to reinforce the drop in SPL and still stay in sync with the direct sound arriving at its delayed time.
or
It was not me you talked to about it? :)
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby mrkniz » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:26 am

It was you, Thomas; it had to be you. I came all the way to TX because I wanted to meet you, and I had a wonderful afternoon chatting with you and visiting your shop.
On that same trip I stopped in Indiana to meet Drew--went to church there one Sunday morning. I also continued on into Canada to meet with Don and Jim Anderson of the Phoenix Organ Company. I had known them for a long time: back in 2001 I was instrumental in obtaining a Phoenix Organ for a local church. It was a beautiful instrument.

As long as we're having this little dialog, I want to share with the Hauptwerk community why it was I wanted to meet you in person. On Christmas Eve 2010, I had the beginnings of my Hauptwerk project almost ready to play for the afternoon service. Almost, but I couldn't get the expression pedals to work. That was 2:00pm, the service was at 4:00. I sent out an SOS, and by 2:30 you had responded with step-by-step instructions. The pedals worked perfectly, thanks to you. I was so appreciative, and I never forgot you. Good to hear from you again. Ken Zink
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:35 am

You guys are the best. Seriously, such an incredible group of people here. I wish there was a way we could have a “reunion“ for everyone and just play and play and play.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Mouter » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:03 am

Hi Drew and all who worked on this extraordinary project.

I only read this thread for the first time yesterday - all 28 pages!! Reason is - I am investigating public installation options for HW here in South Africa. At first maybe only augmenting our congregational 3 manual pipe organ with some additional stops - we have started a project to upgrade the organ control system to a digital system, done by up and coming organ builder here in SA.

The story that unfolded in your own project is fascinating - and I am so great full that all this experience is shared with so many contributors. It is exactly the type of information I was looking for. I have experimented with my own home setup over a few years now and have bought some great sample sets - using an experimental console and basic audio on 4 channels with some Behringer kit. the main item I want to explore now is the audio setup - and your project provided a wealth of interesting angles to further investigate.

I am looking forward to hear/see some recording of your 22 June event (it was my son's birthday - so has to be good).

Regards
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:29 pm

Mouter wrote:Hi Drew and all who worked on this extraordinary project.

I only read this thread for the first time yesterday - all 28 pages!! Reason is - I am investigating public installation options for HW here in South Africa. At first maybe only augmenting our congregational 3 manual pipe organ with some additional stops - we have started a project to upgrade the organ control system to a digital system, done by up and coming organ builder here in SA.

The story that unfolded in your own project is fascinating - and I am so great full that all this experience is shared with so many contributors. It is exactly the type of information I was looking for. I have experimented with my own home setup over a few years now and have bought some great sample sets - using an experimental console and basic audio on 4 channels with some Behringer kit. the main item I want to explore now is the audio setup - and your project provided a wealth of interesting angles to further investigate.

I am looking forward to hear/see some recording of your 22 June event (it was my son's birthday - so has to be good).

Regards
Mouton


Fantastic! This is exactly what I was hoping would come of this project and thread. I, too, stumbled around the forums here and found "a little info here," and "a little info there," so when I started this project I wanted to keep as accurate of a "journal" as I could of the entire process.

The folks here were invaluably helpful to me and I'm sure they (and I) can and will be much help to you as well.

I still have a few changes I want to make to this instrument - I suppose it is never truly "done," but I plan on doing a comprehensive review in the weeks to come.

I will definitely be sharing recordings when they are available. Keep an eye out here for them in the weeks to come.

Best wishes!
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:06 pm

ROUTING SCHEME

I've been asked about this quite a lot, so I thought I would share my speaker routing scheme. I arrived at this with a lot of trial and error, and someone, to be sure, could definitely make it better but it's the best I was able to arrive at before finally throwing in the towel.

Image

It's a little hard to see on the forum, so a full-resolution link is here:
https://i.ibb.co/LvXQj0k/Screen-Shot-2019-07-06-at-10-56-59-PM.png

Take this with a grain of salt. I did this one based of Armley Schulze, but using the same speaker layout, different organs will fill in differently - the Freiberg Silbermann, for example, only has two manuals, so the pipe/rank routing changed a bit, but following this same basic idea - Pipe length and Timbre kept together as much as possible - except reeds and celeste's being grouped together in the same division. (I also typically put mixtures in the string/reed group as well).

ALL MONO!

ALL 24-bit!

I have two subs (currently). ALL 16' ranks get mixed down and routed to the Trio12 BIB, and all 32' ranks get mixed down and routed to the TubaHT.

I currently have 6 unused channels. I'm debating adding the 18" Ultimax Sub, and maybe some rear mixdown channels for ambience.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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