Search:
Submit Search


Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:21 am

dw154515 wrote: I'm debating adding the 18" Ultimax Sub, and maybe some rear mix down channels for ambiance.


Excellent options. Quite sure will make a positive addition.

Assume you used the MOTU routing software? (Highly recommended for anyone working with large numbers of channels/speakers.)

From your post of 12 March 2019, does some or all of this still apply?

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&start=360#p130371

I wanted to report back and let everyone know that I have been experimenting with more routing/speaker placement options. I extended my original 12' shelves to 16', and added a third row. So now, instead of 12 speakers crammed into a 12' space, there are 8 per 16' row, spread over 3 shelves. I also turned them all randomly - some as much as 90 degrees left or right. Major improvement. I'm still just not sure about the routing. It's like each way I try, there things I like, and things I don't.

Tonight I reverted back to doing 2 groups - 1 group of 4 speakers for 32' stops, and all the rest routed to group 2, of 44 speakers, cyclic. And this worked very well. I'm afraid I am chasing my tail at this point.... so....

I think I'm calling the instrument "done."


Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5982
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:46 pm

engrssc wrote:
dw154515 wrote: I'm debating adding the 18" Ultimax Sub, and maybe some rear mix down channels for ambiance.


Excellent options. Quite sure will make a positive addition.

Assume you used the MOTU routing software? (Highly recommended for anyone working with large numbers of channels/speakers.)

From your post of 12 March 2019, does some or all of this still apply?

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&start=360#p130371

I wanted to report back and let everyone know that I have been experimenting with more routing/speaker placement options. I extended my original 12' shelves to 16', and added a third row. So now, instead of 12 speakers crammed into a 12' space, there are 8 per 16' row, spread over 3 shelves. I also turned them all randomly - some as much as 90 degrees left or right. Major improvement. I'm still just not sure about the routing. It's like each way I try, there things I like, and things I don't.

Tonight I reverted back to doing 2 groups - 1 group of 4 speakers for 32' stops, and all the rest routed to group 2, of 44 speakers, cyclic. And this worked very well. I'm afraid I am chasing my tail at this point.... so....

I think I'm calling the instrument "done."


Rgds,
Ed


Some of that is accurate. When I posed that originally, yes, I went back to 2 groups, but I have since changed again to the scheme pictured in the previous post.

All of the speakers are still placed facing randomly - Three 18' rows of shelves, with 8 speakers each.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:00 pm

Everyone, after a lengthy editing process, the dedication concert video is now available on YouTube for all to experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rxA2of7tcQ&feature=youtu.be&fmt=18

Happy listening.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:14 pm

Hello everyone,

I would like to make everyone aware of two upcoming concerts featuring the organ:

Saturday - December 14th @ 4pm - "A Paramount Christmas"
- Music from Louis-Claude D’Aquin
, Johann Sebastian Bach, 
David Willcocks
, Jean Langlais
, Olivier Messiaen, and Richard Purvis, as well as some great popular classics of the 20th Century on the Paramount 341.

Wednesday - December 18th @ 7pm - "Christmas Traditions" with the Crossroads Brass Band
- The Crossroads Brass Band will be presenting their "Christmas Traditions" concert, which will feature a special piece for organ and brass band.

We will also be hosting the CICATOS chapter this coming weekend for a social meet.

I hope you can join us!

To be notified of upcoming concerts via email, you can always subscribe to our mailing list at:
http://www.greenwoodumc.org

I am the website moderator, so you don't have to worry about being spammed with a ton of emails.

It is also worth nothing that: http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org is being phased out. That URL now points to the music section within the new church website.

I do plan on recording (audio and video) both of these concerts. We don't have the budget to keep hiring it out, so I am planning to do it myself this go around. I will also upload them to the church's new YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2v98Yw5vWslQEmcDB7_P3A?view_as=subscriber

If you haven't already subscribed, please do, so you can always have the latest videos. I do plan on cutting these videos up by piece, so that they aren't just one long video.

Additionally, and perhaps more relevant to this forum post, I have once again updated my routing scheme. I have now gone to 4 speakers per group, 12 groups, using Tone Mode 1. So far, I'm really liking this result better than my previous. I spent a lot of time trying to carefully analyze the layout and possible stop combinations to effectively distribute the ranks across the spectrum. So far, this is a much-improved config. More details to come later.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:37 am

dw154515 wrote:Additionally, and perhaps more relevant to this forum post, I have once again updated my routing scheme. I have now gone to 4 speakers per group, 12 groups, using Tone Mode 1. So far, I'm really liking this result better than my previous. I spent a lot of time trying to carefully analyze the layout and possible stop combinations to effectively distribute the ranks across the spectrum. So far, this is a much-improved config. More details to come later.


How different is this latest config from:?

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&start=345#p129749

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5982
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:19 pm

engrssc wrote:
dw154515 wrote:Additionally, and perhaps more relevant to this forum post, I have once again updated my routing scheme. I have now gone to 4 speakers per group, 12 groups, using Tone Mode 1. So far, I'm really liking this result better than my previous. I spent a lot of time trying to carefully analyze the layout and possible stop combinations to effectively distribute the ranks across the spectrum. So far, this is a much-improved config. More details to come later.


How different is this latest config from:?

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&start=345#p129749

Rgds,
Ed


Boy, you guys don't miss a THING! Ya'll remember more than even I do.

johnstump_organist wrote:If you are going with mono, I would really want to try groups of four with tone matching mode 1 which gets every note every triad into separate channels as well as all four notes of many of the 7th chords as well. This helps enormously with intermodulaion. You could use some 2 speaker groups for solo reeds and pedal stops that won't get played in triads. You could have 10 groups of four and 4 groups of 2. C/c# split is good for pedal stops as that splits 5ths into separate channels, probably the only thing that will get regularly played in the pedal other than single notes and octaves.
John


John pretty much summed it up in this post. I am using Tone Mode 1 this time around, and I spent a decent amount of time really trying to think through the best ways of laying the ranks out. 3 Manual sets work out pretty well this way, but sets like the Armley Schulze - with the addition of the Echo division - doesn't fit as well, so I have to find a place to "hide" those ranks. I put the Echo reed (in this case) with the Choir reed division, but put the soft strings and soft flutes in either the Great/Pedal Mixture or Great/Pedal Reed groups, since I doubt I would ever be using the soft Echo stops and the Great Trumpet at the same time - or that extremely bright Great Mixture with the Echo Dolcan, etc. And I may well be mistaken here, Ed, but I think I was still trying stereo at that point and hadn't settled on mono. (?) I can't remember.

I also have a pair of AudioTechnica AT4022 omnidirectional microphones coming tomorrow. I plan on doing a fair amount of testing this week - since I have the week off! I want to make side-by-side recordings of a MIDI file, using the same set, through various routing schemes. I want to put this to bed once and for all. I do plan on posting/sharing those recordings.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:32 pm

dw154515 wrote: I want to put this to bed once and for all.


Hmmm, I wouldn't wanna bet on that. (Said in a positive/complimentary way.) :wink:

Could you detail a bit as to how you are doing the mono thing? I recently was "told" here on the Forum, that if you use mono, that I would be losing half of the sound.

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16597&p=132514&hilit=mono#p132500

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5982
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:16 pm

engrssc wrote:
dw154515 wrote: I want to put this to bed once and for all.


Hmmm, I wouldn't wanna bet on that. (Said in a positive/complimentary way.) :wink:

Could you detail a bit as to how you are doing the mono thing? I recently was "told" here on the Forum, that if you use mono, that I would be losing half of the sound.

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16597&p=132514&hilit=mono#p132500

Rgds,
Ed


Ed, I don't think that is accurate. My assumption is that when using mono, it does one of the following:

1. Uses only the Left (or right) side exclusively
2. Sums the two samples together

Some Sonus Paradisi sets we own actually have the samples listed separately in the "Load organ, adjusting rank options" (or whatever the verbiage is). This lets me actually choose which sample I want to load into the mono group - either the left one, or the right one, for each rank.

I bet any of the sample set producers could chime in here and validate.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:41 pm

Your assumptions are what I have been thinking as well, esp re summing.

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5982
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby johnstump_organist » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:52 pm

There was a post from Martin about this, in which he explained how HW handles the stereo samples and turns them into mono. If I remember correctly, nothing is lost except the stereo effect.
Basically the summing thing I think.
I don't have the time right now to try and chase it down, but some search of Martin's posts should turn it up.

John
User avatar
johnstump_organist
Member
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:15 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby magnaton » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:56 pm

Here is one post where Martin explains that in the stereo to mono configuration, Hauptwerk will choose the louder sample of the 2 (L & R) channels.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15629&p=117017#p117017

Danny B.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:05 pm

Why bother searching the forums when I have you guys. :lol:
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:01 am

User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5982
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:27 am

I just wanted to post a quick update here regarding a new sample set.

I purchased and installed the newly revised Redlands Casavant set, and so far, I must say that I am VERY pleased with it. It still needs to be voiced a bit to fit this space, but overall, the specification, the voicing style, and overall demeanor of the instrument is everything I was looking for as a “go to” set for our day to day use. I hope to have some recordings available soon. The wealth of diapasons, celestes, and solo colors are great. Also, having chimes, harp, celesta, etc. is another big plus. The direct samples fit our wooden A-frame structure very well - in that it sounds like it belongs there, and that’s a first. Of all the sample sets we have, great as they are, just aren’t natural. Caen Cavalie-Coll, Armley Schulze, St. Peter’s Church Silberman, etc. are lovely and loads of fun to play, but obviously just don’t belong in that space. The 1st Presbyterian Bellevue Casavant is a close fit, but it’s voiced so shrill and bright, and it’s missing some finesse. The Reuter, on the other hand, has too MUCH finesse - it’s too lush, too fluffy for every day use. It’s lovely, don’t get me wrong, but soft and lush is ALL it knows how to do, and it does it very well.

The Redlands set, now that it’s been majorly improved and reworked, is probably going to make the Bellevue Casavant and Reuter redundant and unnecessary. A big thank you to Jonathan Orwig for revamping that set. I think it’s going to be a great fit for us.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:04 am

Totally agree with your observations, Drew. I seem to recall recommending Redlands to you a while back, and in this case, glad to say 'Told you so'. :D esp after attending your dedication concert. I believe your church acoustics and Redlands will work well together. We also shopped around until we found Redlands which has become a perfect fit for us. One advantage is that in addition to Jonathon being a sample set producer, he is also a church organist.

It does require a bit of voicing and that doesn't just happen quickly. It requires time and making adjustments as needed. Even the best organ voicers have to 'step away' for a while between voicing sessions because your mind tends to focus on what's here and now. After a few days, you tend to hear things a bit differently. I keep a note pad handy when playing for voicing memo reminders. This whole voicing process is very important to the overall results and that's why I've mentioned several times that on my HW wish list is improved (more) voicing adjustments, even being able to adjust partials.

What's interesting is the interaction of various stops on different places of the keyboard. The sounds are different on the low end as compared to the middle as compared to the high end as the (selected) stops blend. The very same is true with real pipes. Then there are the differences between solo (single note) and various chord combinations. You really need to 'live' with an instrument for a while and explore all of these variations which takes time, but well worth the effort.

Every time I make any changes, I save them and with HW, that's very easy to do.

Rgds,
Ed

.
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5982
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Previous

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest