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Large Church Installation - Greenwood UMC - Greenwood, IN

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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 5:41 pm

Ok, I will ask again, and maybe someone will respond to my main question at hand at this point...

What custom speaker designs have any of you (if any) built and used successfully? Anyone? Anything?

The point here, is that I can spend $X,XXX on stock speakers, or take that same amount of money and find a great design, and essentially double the results because of how much it costs to buy vs. build. I don't care about "how much my time costs," and all that nonsense. This is a labor of love and mad-passion. As far as I'm concerned, it's time well-spent!

So, I'm hearing lots of back and forth from everyone, and I certainly love the exchange, but has anyone out there ACTUALLY BUILT CUSTOM SPEAKERS FOR HAUPTWERK AND HAD GREAT RESULTS?

"I [am a] crazy young man who let's himself be blinded by his passions, and who obeys only the impulse of the moment." - Paraphrasing Gustav Mahler
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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josq

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 5:53 pm

dw154515 wrote:What custom speaker designs have any of you (if any) built and used successfully? Anyone? Anything?

On the Dutch forum, Jan-Wim is well known for his expertise in building custom HW speakers...
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 7:26 pm

Hmm, checked it out and there appears to be quite a bit about speakers. But my German is pretty much gone. Maybe there's a way to translate it, but I didn't see it off hand.

I too wish there was some information about custom built speakers for HW. I've built some for stereo use in my time, but it's not all that trivial to get it right. Subs aren't so bad, but the rest where the musical detail lives, are not so simple.

Eric
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 15, 2016 10:37 pm

josq wrote:
dw154515 wrote:What custom speaker designs have any of you (if any) built and used successfully? Anyone? Anything?

On the Dutch forum, Jan-Wim is well known for his expertise in building custom HW speakers...



There's a Dutch forum?

Google Translate to the rescue....
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Jan Loosman

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 16, 2016 6:03 am

yes the Dutch forum is pcorgan.com
A very busy and informative forum.

regards Jan
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itsabird

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 16, 2016 6:07 am

Yes, there's a Dutch form, allthough it's not called hauptwerk...
To get right to Jan-Wim's topic browse to:
http://www.pcorgel.nl/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2279
called "Nieuwe Speakers".

W.k.r. itsabird

Oh, Jan Loosman posted the same a few seconds earlier...
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 16, 2016 6:46 am

I looked for a translate button on my home computer but found non. Here on my work computer, the google translate pops up on top, and yes it did a decent job of translation. On this thread it appears Jan builds these for sale. I did see alot of other speaker discussion though. Maybe some DIY threads.

I noticed that Ed had mentioned Clinton Knight's church organ build. He did build his own speakers using two 10" full range drivers per cabinet in a dipole arrangement, if I remember correctly. One speaker in front, and one in the rear. He's actually the one that lent me the two 8" drivers I tested. Clinton seemed happy with the results of his dipoles last I had communications with him. He also built his own subs.

Eric
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Jan Loosman

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 16, 2016 7:37 am

Eric Sagmuller wrote:I looked for a translate button on my home computer but found non. Here on my work computer, the google translate pops up on top, and yes it did a decent job of translation.

Eric


If we had not lost New Amsterdam(New York) to the English in 1664. Dutch would probably be the main language in America today and this translation problem would be non existent.
It's a pity :D :D :D

Regards (groeten) John (Jan) :wink:
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Romanos

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 16, 2016 11:24 am

Here you go! There are multiple power options in this line. Read about the 4 operating modes.

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-1000
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Mar 18, 2016 12:42 pm

To get back to the point:

dw154515 wrote:What custom speaker designs have any of you (if any) built and used successfully? Anyone? Anything?


My answer is that I haven't heard what I could recommend. I am thrilled with the Rythmik Audio sub I built, but that was purely a woodworking effort to match a manufacturer's design. I've heard many good things about your TubaHT and would love to have one to experiment with. Two very different subs that do a nice job of delivering either really tight base or a prodigious output. Both will go very low indeed. I know others on the forum like similar DIY subs.

For conventional full range speakers I've seen conversions of old Allen 15" 2-way speakers to three way speakers that worked alright but didn't blow me away. These used a horn for the highs and an 8" midrange. Something similar was done at another area installation, again with fair results. This is experimentation of course and I have no doubt that the right combination of affordable components could equal most commercial speakers. But I guess I'd ask the same question. Who has heard the DIY speaker that they can recommend without reserve??
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Mar 18, 2016 6:35 pm

jkinkennon wrote:For conventional full range speakers I've seen conversions of old Allen 15" 2-way speakers to three way speakers that worked alright but didn't blow me away. These used a horn for the highs and an 8" midrange. Something similar was done at another area installation, again with fair results. This is experimentation of course and I have no doubt that the right combination of affordable components could equal most commercial speakers. But I guess I'd ask the same question. Who has heard the DIY speaker that they can recommend without reserve??



I'm beginning to think I may stumble upon a goldmine if I can come up with a speaker design that is practical, affordable, and relatively easy to build, that is perfectly suited for Hauptwerk. :lol: (No simple task!)

I have enjoyed experimenting with my TLAH Pros. One of the high-pass filters isn't working quite right. I have some replacement parts on order and will build a new one and swap it out in the next few days.

I also ordered an amplifier with DSP, which should be delivered any minute. This will allow me to do some more experimenting with crossover settings and really get an idea where the best crossover point(s) is/are using the TubaHT (as the sub-subwoofer), the CSS Trio12 BIB (as the sub), and the TLAH Pro's as my mains. If this yields good results, I will be building many more sets.
Last edited by dw154515 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Romanos

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostFri Mar 18, 2016 10:36 pm

these are being built and sold in france (in case you would like to reverse engineer them)

http://hauptwerk.fr/contents/fr/d183.html

The large ones at the top with two drivers are described this way (quick translation):
La GO400C a été étudiée pour permettre un rayonnement optimal du signal sonore. Grâce à ses deux haut-parleurs placés chacun sur un axe différent, elle reproduit l'espace sonore d'un orgue à tuyau sous sa voûte. Son rendement très élevé lui permet en outre d'atteindre des niveaux sonores vraiment comparables à ceux d'un orgue de grande taille.

The GO400C were studied to produce an optimal projection of the sound signal. Thanks to its two speakers each placed on a different axis, they reproduce a sonic spacial-ness (read: large soundstage) like a pipe organ under a vault (or informally, "under its ceiling"). The elevated size permits it to attain levels of sound comparable of those of an organ of large size.
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSat Mar 19, 2016 8:41 pm

What gets me are the extreme prices for the various speakers that claim to all simulate the pipe organ in their own way. I checked the PC organ forum and they discuss alot of speakers. The new ones mentioned and others use very expensive drivers and gold/silver capacitors, and don't appear to be a DYI option. At these expensive prices one couldn't afford many. I question using say only one pair of very expensive ones. This certainly doesn't simulate an organ with all of the individual sound producers (pipes). I really wish someone that knows speaker design well would come up with a decent sounding DIY speaker for a good price, that one could afford to build many of if one so desired. I've seen some audiophile designs in the past in this class, but the designs are outdated and drivers no longer available.

One disadvantage though of building ones own is if one ever wanted to sell them. Name brand units are naturally much easier to sell for a fair price. Of course if building ones own costs so much less, then it probably isn't an issue.

Eric
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organtechnology

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSat Mar 19, 2016 9:20 pm

I spent a few minutes with a search engine and found these URLs on the first page.
Some are fascinating to read some are pretty dry. Some might be resources for further investigation.
They all seem to agree on the room as an important part of the sound system and/or organ.

Hope they help.

Thomas

http://www.church-acoustics.com/
http://www.church-acoustics.com/pdf/chu ... ooklet.pdf
http://www.acousticsbydesign.com/venues ... ustics.htm
http://www.qualityorgans.com/acoustics.htm
http://www.churchorgansofcolorado.com/p ... 0Guide.pdf
http://www.colsdioc.org/Portals/0/Depar ... ustics.PDF
http://www.rodgersinstruments.com/audio-products
http://www.lawrencephelps.com/Documents ... tics.shtml
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSat Mar 19, 2016 11:50 pm

Speakers are actually very inexpensive to manufacture - it's the engineering and marketing that you pay for. Bose is the classic poster child for this. I, personally, don't own a single Bose product, and quite frankly, never will. They are masters at charging you maximum $$ for the smallest amount of physical product. Granted, their designs are clever, albeit, surprisingly deceptive. Their 901's for example, with the EQ module, are just a laughing riot in my opinion. Still, though, many people claim they are the best things ever.

The issue with speakers, though, is that what sounds good to one person, will sound bad to another. And what works in one environment, will not be best-suited for another. And, as such, no one speaker will ever suit everyone's needs. Still, though, I am very curious to pursue this endeavor for a while and see what I can come up with.

I mean, lots of organ manufacturers out there, such as Rodgers, Allen, Saville (unheard of these days), etc. all used very generic, basic speaker designs. What I'm beginning to realize is that these builders just used what was just a good, work-horse design. Nothing fancy.

Maybe it's time to change that.

I have a few ideas up my sleeve that I'm curious to try. It may take me a long time to get right, but this sounds like a fun job, so, at the very least, I'm willing to try and fail.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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