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Large Church Installation - Greenwood UMC - Greenwood, IN

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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSun Mar 20, 2016 8:24 am

If I had the energy and time I would devote some time to experimentation myself. I'm an electronics tech so am good at the electronics end of things, but really don't have the experience with speaker design. Again I feel that there must be a way to come up with some reasonably priced, good sounding DIY speakers for the VPO, particularly if one wants multiple channels that tax the speakers much less. I was looking at Madisound Speaker, a supplier I've purchased from before, and they have a number of kits of good sound quality, but even these get expensive fast.

For my home I would probably want smaller 2 way designs so I could pack a number of them into a smaller space. I don't think passive crossovers are that bad if the components are of good quality, although I prefer active designs. Of course this means many more amplifiers.

I have never purchased any Bose products either. As you Drew, their advertising claims and prices just turn me off. To be honest I haven't been exposed to their products much. But I did hear an acoustic wave machine in a friends house, and to me there was nothing special at all about the sound, for the size and cost of the thing.

Let us know what you come up with Drew!

Eric
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telemanr

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSun Mar 20, 2016 12:38 pm

Re Bose.
I used to have 901s years ago when we were into early quad sound etc. They were a pain. Placement was an issue in an average room. Very precise rules about distance from wall etc. Anyway lost the equalizer in a move and never bothered to get that replaced and ultimately scrapped them. No great loss.
My sister-in-law fell for the Wave nonsense. It is especially ridiculous in her case because she and my brother treat music as soft background noise. They couldn't possibly hear any vast improvement in sound.
The thing is aimed at people who want no extra speakers or wires or mess. And that fits their style (their house looks like it is staged to sell at all times.) I was there when they got it and we played the demo disk that comes with it which is meant to be played at a reasonably loud level. That was the last time the volume has ever gone beyond barely audible.
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engrssc

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostSun Mar 20, 2016 1:54 pm

While not esp a fan of Bose, mostly due to price as in bang for the buck. But I had to do a sound system for a church that is for the moment leasing what was formerly a large open office space seating approx 400 +. The bigger issue, sound wise is the fact that the the ceiling height is 9 ft and the ceiling is drop in acoustic tile. A real bummer in all regards. They did not want distributed speakers built into the ceiling as you see many times in stores, etc. Ideally I would have liked to use several line arrays up front but the ones that, spec wise, would have served the purpose would have extended down so that at least some taller folks would have had to have ducked to get under them. The shorter arrays, didn't work either as those in the back most areas wouldn't have been able to hear. Bummer here too.

So we tried 4 -Bose 802W speakers mounted right up against the ceiling in the front (approx 18 ft in front of the altar area) and with their wood grained cabinets, blend in with the decor fairly well.. This "auditorium/sanctuary" is unusual in that the altar area is in one corner, and the seating area fans across left to right fairly wide and deep. These 802W's really did the job. With good parametric equalization, etc, the sound op would have to work at it to get even a hint of acoustical feedback. And further, some older hard of hearing members that formerly used RF receiver assisted hearing aids no longer needed them.

The music "pros" insisted on a Johannes instrument and even with the best speakers the Johannes rep could offer, the organ just didn't make it at all. In "desperation", the Johannes guy asked for some help. So we took a mix from the organ and fed that signal (properly equalized) thru the console, and the organ "came alive", but the pedal division was at best puny. The fix for that was to build a House Wrecker which takes the lower range from the organ thru it's own power amp, the HW is installed in the corner basically behind the altar area and it is definitely heard or maybe better said, it's presence is felt. Just for comparison, we turned off our organ support feeds, and what a difference. Granted some reasonably delicate balance is needed initially in the setup, but after that, the organ sounds not at all bad, even tho I'm not a Johannes fan either. I did try my Portable Hauptwerk setup and that was really good even under these adverse room conditions. So they know, now, what can be and have to decide on priorities. Their max attendance has been close to 500 and even with that larger number (for that room), everyone heard fine.

Rgds,
Ed
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Mar 21, 2016 3:36 pm

I have finished my line arrays.

Now I am going to build something completely different:

Image

The BK-12m for Fostex FE126En

Now, it's only a 4.5" full range driver, but I'm curious to test out more full range/horn designs with a full range driver. This thing will likely not play very loud, but I'm curious to test it for fidelity and, should it pass, I'm wondering if volume is all that necessary if using 20+ of these things. They are nice and solid down to 65Hz (making them ideal for 8' stops!) so, I'm wondering if having lots of these (or a similar design) would compare to the results of the line arrays.

Two different schools of thought. It's going to be fun to compare them side by side.
Last edited by dw154515 on Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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jkinkennon

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Mar 21, 2016 5:27 pm

I eagerly await your results, especially for any of the designs that work out well in your church. Keep us informed as so often we don't tackle one of these designs because its a lot of work and expense and sometimes a lot of garage space if the project isn't what we expected. If I get my next console built it would be fun to try out a couple of speakers again. The larger arrays are especially interesting but goodness the expenses add up fast when its one or two drivers times 12 or 18.
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Mar 21, 2016 5:55 pm

Yes will be interesting to hear the results. I built TL subs in my younger years and they are a nice design. I used them on a new Allen I had purchased, but then sold 3 years later as I just didn't like the sound (of the organ).
I just noticed the picture above is actually a horn, not transmission line. A TL reverse tapers.

Eric
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Mar 21, 2016 10:03 pm

jkinkennon wrote:I eagerly await your results, especially for any of the designs that work out well in your church. Keep us informed as so often we don't tackle one of these designs because its a lot of work and expense and sometimes a lot of garage space if the project isn't what we expected. If I get my next console built it would be fun to try out a couple of speakers again. The larger arrays are especially interesting but goodness the expenses add up fast when its one or two drivers times 12 or 18.


I will definitely be sharing. The drivers that I used on the line arrays were very inexpensive. All in, including lumber and supplies, it was about $200 to build the pair.

Eric Sagmuller wrote:Yes will be interesting to hear the results. I built TL subs in my younger years and they are a nice design. I used them on a new Allen I had purchased, but then sold 3 years later as I just didn't like the sound (of the organ).
I just noticed the picture above is actually a horn, not transmission line. A TL reverse tapers.

Eric


I've been reading differing opinions on all of this stuff. Folded horn, TL, etc..... I have a theory that I want to test soon. It isn't scientific (yet), just an artistic hunch/idea that I want to try. I need to do more research on the engineering/math behind the TL theories before I try and tackle it. (Or, at least find someone else who knows the math well and have them design it based on my ideas....)

We will see....
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Romanos

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 8:43 am

Yes, I imagine there are many in this group (myself included) who are very eager to find out what seems to work well. While some projects using off-the-shelf speakers are great and rightly to be admired, one can never help but wonder :idea: if there is a better custom way. Good luck! :D
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 9:08 am

dw154515 wrote:I've been reading differing opinions on all of this stuff. Folded horn, TL, etc..... I have a theory that I want to test soon. It isn't scientific (yet), just an artistic hunch/idea that I want to try. I need to do more research on the engineering/math behind the TL theories before I try and tackle it. (Or, at least find someone else who knows the math well and have them design it based on my ideas....)

We will see....


I never saw much math related to TL design. Delay the rear wave of the driver by 1/4 wavelength, add stuffing to help slow down the rear wave, taper down by a certain amount. Bits and pieces I remember reading.

Eric
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engrssc

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 9:16 am

Then there is an infinite baffle which for the most part isn't something most easily adapted for this type setup. That was discussed here quite a while ago and used successfully in at least one church installation.

Rgds,
Ed
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Romanos

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 9:29 am

engrssc wrote:Then there is an infinite baffle which for the most part isn't something most easily adapted for this type setup. That was discussed here quite a while ago and used successfully in at least one church installation.

Rgds,
Ed



Now that you think of it- I suppose the IB aspect is partly what makes a thigpen rotary woofer so successful too.
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engrssc

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 1:23 pm

Not to mention - $ expensive $. I've only heard one once, and yes, very impressive.

And now to come back to the "real" world most of us live in.

Rgds,
Ed
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 2:34 pm

Yeah those things are much more than just a moving cone and are probably not as fussy as an IB setup where the woofer cones can easily be overdriven. Picture a table fan with moving blades pulsating to an audio signal. I thought of trying to make one of these as an experiment, just another project I need :roll:
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 3:42 pm

Eric Sagmuller wrote:
dw154515 wrote:I've been reading differing opinions on all of this stuff. Folded horn, TL, etc..... I have a theory that I want to test soon. It isn't scientific (yet), just an artistic hunch/idea that I want to try. I need to do more research on the engineering/math behind the TL theories before I try and tackle it. (Or, at least find someone else who knows the math well and have them design it based on my ideas....)

We will see....


I never saw much math related to TL design. Delay the rear wave of the driver by 1/4 wavelength, add stuffing to help slow down the rear wave, taper down by a certain amount. Bits and pieces I remember reading.

Eric


Yes, there is quite a bit of engineering involved in building a TL successfully, apparently. I've been reading up (and mostly forgetting) a LOT of information. I'm building this design here as an experiment. IF it functions how I want it to, I have an idea for a transmission line / folded horn that I will start drafting. The fun of this is coming up with my own design. I don't want to just use someone else's.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 7:42 pm

So I have finished the boxes for the new speakers. They seem so small compared to the line arrays, but I am excited to experience what they are capable of.

Image
Image

My drivers should be arriving tomorrow, so hopefully they will be installed and tested soon. Since it's Holy Week, I may not have much time for the next few days.


This week I also ordered and tested a DSP amp, as was recommended earlier in the thread. I chose a Behringer iNuke3000 with DSP and have been testing it using the two subs. Upon first listen, I really like what this thing is capable of. Having a sub and a "sub-sub" is pretty impressive. My poor garage is going to cave in on me if I'm not careful.

Image
Last edited by dw154515 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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