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Church Installation Speaker Placement

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Tweedle_Dee

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Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostFri Apr 29, 2016 7:30 pm

Hello,

I'm proposing a Hauptwerk installation at the church I play at but none of us are very experienced in audio. We may hire a consultant, but I'd like to get an idea of what has worked for others.

Our sanctuary is somewhere in the neighborhood of 100x30, 2900 square feet to be exact. Long and narrow with a high vaulted ceiling. The acoustic is quite dry unfortunately as we have full carpet and acoustic ceiling tile. We currently have a very small pipe organ at the rear of the church. The choir normally sits at the front of the church near the piano (see link to pictures.) For an organ/choir anthem, they will sometimes come up to the loft with me.

I was initially going to suggest (based on recommendation) 12 Behringer 2031a monitors mounted on either side of the pipes and 1 or 2 subwoofers at the rear of the church. But the more I read and talk with others, the more unsure I am of that arrangement. Currently, there is no audio infrastructure for an electronic organ.

Someone recently suggested having speakers up front also, but I've read that you should position the speakers like you would pipework, basically coming from one general direction - unless you're purposely setting up an antiphonal division which is not ideal for a long narrow church with the console in the back. Balancing the two would be a challenge I suspect.

In a more ideal world, I'd place a new console in or near the chancel and have speakers up front so the pews under the loft could hear the organ better and so I could hop from the piano to the organ much easier. However, I seriously doubt they'd go for that idea and the organ loft has tons of unused space. In fact, all the pews except one have been removed from the loft.

As for speaker selection, I'm completely open to suggestion and realize it may be difficult to give suggestions without hearing them in the specific space.

http://imgur.com/a/g9xcm
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engrssc

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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostFri Apr 29, 2016 8:29 pm

Some pictures of the church interior would help. And I did see the sketches.

Rgds,
Ed
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Tweedle_Dee

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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostSat Apr 30, 2016 10:04 am

Here are a few. Sorry for the very poor quality (which is why I did some sketches). I see now that the ceiling height in my sketch is not quite right. Oh well.

http://imgur.com/9vrAisM
http://imgur.com/BK1tl0V
http://imgur.com/738u4Fv
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dw154515

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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostSat Apr 30, 2016 8:34 pm

I am in a similar situation.

I'm sure you've at least thumbed through my thread here:

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009


I haven't begun the installation yet, and am still designing and testing speakers, so I'm approaching it from a slightly different vantage point than you, but architecturally and acoustically, we are in the same boat and going to run up against the same issues.

The blessing (and curse) of Hauptwerk is that the sky is the limit. It comes down to time, money, and knowledge/experimentation.

I really have no advice to give, as I am in the same place you are. I am, however, working on it regularly, so keep an eye on that thread above, and I will keep an eye out here on this thread and hopefully we can be of some mutual help to one another.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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magnaton

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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostSun May 01, 2016 4:25 pm

Tweedle_Dee wrote:Hello,

I was initially going to suggest (based on recommendation) 12 Behringer 2031a monitors mounted on either side of the pipes and 1 or 2 subwoofers at the rear of the church. But the more I read and talk with others, the more unsure I am of that arrangement.


Hello Tweedle_dee:

I took on the role as organ consultant for a chapel very similar to your church: seats 400, A-frame design, and decent size choir loft. In my case however there weren't any pews under the loft as they have a Narthex and the loft barely over hangs the wall where the sanctuary doors are located. We installed a nice 3 manual Allen Quantum with all the speakers in a center chamber exactly where your organ pipes are located.

For your situation, I see no issues of expanding your pipe chamber and added the speakers on either side. From your photo, it shouldn't be difficult cut into the wall, add an additional wooden frame and black grill cloth for the speaker chambers so the digital enhancement is unnoticed. As you've might have read on other threads, most HW samples are recorded in stereo so your 12 channels are really 6 separate (stereo) channels. If you place 6 speakers on the left of the pipe chamber (farthest from the console) and 6 on the right of the chamber opening you should be able to hear any Hauptwerk voice selected. I do notice that some ranks tend to shift emphasis to the left or right channel as you move around different keyboard octaves as they try to simulate a chromatic or diatonic pipe chest design. This is wonderful as it just adds more to the realism. There isn't a 'hard' C-C# split unless you really want it by selecting that multi-channel routing algorithm.

I would not recommend putting any speakers in front, especially if the acoustics work fine and the organ (and or choir voices in the loft can be heard throughout the sanctuary). On the other hand, one option from my experience (of which I can name 3) is where speakers were placed on the opposite side from the source to add ambience or to borrow an old Allen organ term "presence projector". This is where you would add a HW 'mix down' channel or two and have front speakers tucked away out of sight, like up in the rafters pointing straight up. This gives the effect that the building's acoustics is well designed and the sound is naturally carried from back to front. You can't hear (or see) these ambient speakers directly and really don't know they are there since they are barely audible but if you turn them off, you and maybe a parishioner with a trained ear could tell the difference.

Danny B.
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Tweedle_Dee

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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostMon May 02, 2016 1:08 pm

dw154515 wrote:I really have no advice to give, as I am in the same place you are. I am, however, working on it regularly, so keep an eye on that thread above, and I will keep an eye out here on this thread and hopefully we can be of some mutual help to one another.


Thanks, I will be watching your thread with interest.
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostMon May 02, 2016 1:11 pm

I would not recommend putting any speakers in front, especially if the acoustics work fine and the organ (and or choir voices in the loft can be heard throughout the sanctuary). On the other hand, one option from my experience (of which I can name 3) is where speakers were placed on the opposite side from the source to add ambience or to borrow an old Allen organ term "presence projector". This is where you would add a HW 'mix down' channel or two and have front speakers tucked away out of sight, like up in the rafters pointing straight up. This gives the effect that the building's acoustics is well designed and the sound is naturally carried from back to front. You can't hear (or see) these ambient speakers directly and really don't know they are there since they are barely audible but if you turn them off, you and maybe a parishioner with a trained ear could tell the difference.

Danny B.


Thanks, this is the sort of advice I was looking for. I've never heard of the "presence projector" but it makes sense. Interesting.
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostMon May 02, 2016 1:19 pm

The vestry met yesterday to discuss the organ proposal. In a surprising turn of events, they were mostly supportive of putting the console up front. This will, of course, present other challenges. We need to be more careful about how the speakers are installed in front and depending exactly where the console ends up, hearing what the congregation hears might be a problem as there is a dividing wall in the way.
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostMon May 23, 2016 2:37 pm

I'll give my two cents for what it's worth....

First, a question: why is the choir down front in pews? Why are they not up in the spacious loft by the organ projecting into the room? (And if the congregation is Catholic, I wonder all the more.) As has been the well tried-and-true method, I can't help but imagine it would be a better arrangement. As for speaker placement, you can't go wrong placing the speakers like pipes. They should be high off of the ground on the rear wall just like the real thing. If you have an existing swell box, I'd even try to put some speakers in it to get a truly natural swell too. This is even more important if your project plans on integrating the existing pipes. Putting the speakers high, spread across the rear gallery wall will emulate the height and breadth of a real instrument. This will undoubtedly work in your favor. This has been done by many hauptwerk installations and is often done by other toaster manufacturers as well--and with good reason. Such a placement should sound the most real and allow for the greatest dispersion of sound into the room. This all leads me to my next point- are you sure you want the console down on the floor at the other end of the room? Such an arrangement can be rather difficult. It cannot be easy for your choir to sing so far from the instrument and it will not be any easier to play either.
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostMon May 23, 2016 7:38 pm

Romanos, you will be pleased to know that the console, at this point, is destined for the rear of the sanctuary in the loft. We also found ourselves in line with your suggestion to get the speakers higher. A test of the audio scheme with the speakers lower than we'd have liked sounded very convincing but of course the sound mellowed a bit as one moved towards the back of the sanctuary out of direct line with the speakers. In fairness, the same thing happens with the real pipes of course.

Quite a trick to tell the pipes from Hauptwerk when the registrations are similar.
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostTue May 24, 2016 7:35 am

jkinkennon wrote:Romanos, you will be pleased to know that the console, at this point, is destined for the rear of the sanctuary in the loft. We also found ourselves in line with your suggestion to get the speakers higher. A test of the audio scheme with the speakers lower than we'd have liked sounded very convincing but of course the sound mellowed a bit as one moved towards the back of the sanctuary out of direct line with the speakers. In fairness, the same thing happens with the real pipes of course.

Quite a trick to tell the pipes from Hauptwerk when the registrations are similar.



Well, I'm thrilled that you are getting such a convincing sound from HW when juxtaposed with your pipes. That's truly awesome and bodes very, very well for your project!
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John Murdoch

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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostTue May 24, 2016 1:41 pm

Our sanctuary is a bit smaller than yours--24 feet wide by 70 feet long. But we have a similar acoustic: carpeted floor, padded seats...and typically 100-120 warm, sound-absorbing bodies on a Sunday morning.

We have spent five years using PA speakers on pole mounts with Hauptwerk--the congregation is very happy. What we're installing now is
  • 6 Behringer B2031A speakers
  • 1 SVS PC-2000 subwoofer
  • MOTU UltraLite/AVB audio interface
The speakers are going about 16' up on the rear wall of the sanctuary, to help project sound further forward (our existing arrangement sees a sharp dropoff in sound levels about 6-8 pews forward from the back). Based on a mockup using six audio channels (M-Audio AV-40) and a SBX-10 sub at home, the difference in audio will be remarkable.

Some thoughts:
  • Using active speakers (where the amplifier is built into the speaker) means you have to provide 120 volt AC power up on the sanctuary wall with the speakers.
  • The Behringer B2031A is rated for 265 watts--that means that you have a maximum of 6 speakers on a 15 amp circuit (allowing for a 20% derating factor)
  • That, in turn, means if you're planning on using twelve speakers, you're going to have to have an electrical contractor install two 15 amp circuits--and you will want those circuits to have dedicated neutral and ground that are home-run back to your electrical panel.
  • The MOTU UltraLite/AVB allows us to expand--to do precisely the kind of "presence projection" you're thinking of, using sound sets (such as the new Armsley Schultze from Lavender Audio) that can route different audio samples to different sets of speakers. Our plans are to use our two PA speakers up front just to play around--but if the idea seems promising, we'll use more studio monitors and install them atop alcoves on either side of the front of the sanctuary.
We're focusing a lot on the issue of simplifying startup for the substitute or visiting organist. My regular substitute reports that startup is extremely easy "so long as you're here to do it all." When he has to remember where the various on/off switches are, etc., it becomes a challenge.

Among the things we've done is to have the electric receptacles for the speakers (up on the sanctuary wall) switched from a small panel in the closet behind the organ. Similarly, adjacent switches turn on the subwoofer, console, computer, monitors, and audio interface. (I was going to add a Keurig machine, but the deacons did not approve.) Startup is a lot simpler, but there's still more we can do to make the process seem simpler than flying a jetliner.

Another thing we're doing is measuring sound levels--so when we transition from the existing system to the new, we won't deafen anybody. You can buy a decibel meter, with a carefully-calibrated microphone; we found an app (free!) for Android phones named "Sound Meter" that is calibrated to the standard microphone in a variety of common phones (I have a Samsung Galaxy Note 4, for instance).

We have been recording sound pressure levels (decibels) for quite some time--from different places in the sanctuary during morning worship. We have a pretty solid profile of sound in full services, lightly-attended services (Maundy Thursday, anyone? Anyone?), and an empty sanctuary. We expect the sound profiles to change--because we've moved the speakers up far higher. But this modeling will help us determine the appropriate output levels with the new system.

We'll learn more in the next few weeks, as we turn this on "for real."
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostTue May 24, 2016 2:02 pm

Romanos wrote:I'll give my two cents for what it's worth....

First, a question: why is the choir down front in pews? Why are they not up in the spacious loft by the organ projecting into the room? (And if the congregation is Catholic, I wonder all the more.) As has been the well tried-and-true method, I can't help but imagine it would be a better arrangement.


A number of years ago, long before I got there, the Rector made the controversial decision to remove several pews up at the front of the church and install a grand piano along with room for the choir. I don't think they had an organist at the time. The choir got very used to sitting down below and pretty much refuse, along with the director, to return to the loft on a regular basis. In addition, we have 3+ choir members over 80. Climbing the stairs is challenging for them.

As John mentioned, I have all but abandoned the idea of putting the console up front after careful consideration.
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostTue May 24, 2016 2:04 pm

John Murdoch wrote:Our sanctuary is a bit smaller than yours--24 feet wide by 70 feet long. But we have a similar acoustic: carpeted floor, padded seats...and typically 100-120 warm, sound-absorbing bodies on a Sunday morning.

We have spent five years using PA speakers on pole mounts with Hauptwerk--the congregation is very happy.


Great info here, thanks! Can I ask you which sample set(s) you use for your installation?
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Re: Church Installation Speaker Placement

PostTue May 24, 2016 2:49 pm

In response to John's advice on electrical runs (which was good)--
if you can't have the electrical lines run, if I'm not mistaken there are passive versions of these speakers as well. It can be a lot easier to just run speaker wire in a pinch.

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