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Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...
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montyjnc

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Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 03, 2016 10:28 am

Hello all-

I apologize as this is my very first post on the Hauptwerk forums. I admit I am still somewhat baffled by the complexities of each system, and despite combing through the forums have been unsure of a few topics.

Currently, I had a 1963 Rodgers 330E console midified, and it is connected thru a Presonus Audiobox 22vsl to my computer via a midi cable. The interface currently is connected to 2x Mackie Hr824mkII studio monitors using 1/4" cables; however, I am currently working to upgrade my setup as I struggle with the lack of definition in low frequencies/inability to produce signals below ~50 Hz. I hope to remedy this by eventually purchasing a pair of Def Tec bipolar 8060st towers.
My questions:
1. The speaker towers will need some kind of amplification. How exactly do I wire that into my system? Would I have my computer hooked (by usb) to my interface, and the interface to some kind of amplifier, and then to the speaker? How exactly would I hook up an amplifier to my system?

2. If I purchased speakers which needed an amplifier, could I still use my existing studio monitors as well? I have been looking at expanding to a MOTU Ultralight Hybrid MkIII.

3. How exactly does this all wire together... If you have an interface with 8x outputs but also a amplifier with outputs?... I am getting lost! Does an amplifier take the place of the receiver?
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 03, 2016 10:56 am

Hello montyjnc,

First off welcome to the HW forum, you're in good hands! :D Before posting my reply I had a look at both your audio interface and your monitors to be as accurate as possible in my answer. You have a few limitations to deal with first. Your Presonus Audiobox is a 2- channel device, so in order to add more speakers, subs, etc., you're going to have to start with a different audio interface first, in particular one with more channels. Typically audio interfaces come with an equal amount of both inputs and outputs, like 4 in and 4 out, 8 in and 8 out, etc., etc. In order to make a fairly substantial gain in sound, I'd advise looking into at least an 8 channel device, which one though is a good question as there will be many opinions here, but all will be very helpful none the less. Once you get the audio interface part taken care of you can then move onto speakers, either self powered or requiring an amp / receiver to power them, and this then opens up a plethora of options for the addition of different speakers and a sub. 8)

To answer some of your questions.... Yes, you can still use your existing monitors. When it comes down to how it's wired it's fairly simple. If you use self powered speakers like you are using now, you will simply connect the output from the audio interface directly to the input of your monitors as you are doing now. If you purchase speakers requiring an amp / receiver to power them, you would first connect the output of the audio interface to the input of the amp / receiver, then from the receiver speaker wires to the speakers.

When it comes to amps / receivers and the number of inputs / outputs, the easiest way I can describe it is most typical receivers (i.e. home theater, etc.) although have multiple inputs, you can only use one input at a time, in other words if you use receivers to power speakers it will require multiple receivers per pair of channels to power multiple speakers. An actual amp on the other hand (not a receiver) typically comes with 7 or more inputs and outputs that can all be used at the same time, hence only requiring one amp vs. multiple receivers to power multiple speakers.

This can all be confusing, the easiest way is to go with more powered monitors eliminating the need for additional amps / receivers and add a sub. Once you get the multi-channel audio interface then the rest is very straight forward and is what most here are doing.

I hope this helps to some extent! :)

Marc
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montyjnc

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 03, 2016 12:06 pm

Marc-

Thank you, your response has answered a huge plethora of questions I had! I have one final question regarding the wiring of the amplifier. I understand now that the audio out from interface would feed into the amplifier, and then from there into speakers; however, what if some speakers were powered vs unpowered (i.e. using my studio monitors which are already powered with 2 speaker towers that would require amplification)? Would the studio monitors as well as towers be able to hook into the back of the amplifier?

Also, considering I only have a 2 channel interface, would I be able to wire in a sub without upgrading the interface just yet?

Finally- (I may just need to start a new topic with this one...)
I have been looking at various models of the Supercube by definitive technology and I suspect it will put me back between 600-700$. Would it make more sense to invest in the Definitive Bipolar towers with integrated powered subs?
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TheOrganDoc

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 03, 2016 1:39 pm

Hello Monty,

Since you have only Two Outputs from your sound Interface, I would connect the two outputs from your interface to the two, rca input jacks on your Sub-Woofer, then two more rca cords,
from the two rca output jacks on the Sub,
these cords should go to all your Powered Monitors inputs, and also the inputs of your amplifier that drives the towers.

This will require "two, Three Way, rca cord adapters" which are not readily available,
but would work if connected properly !

(Most Important Info.), Never connect the Speaker output of any Amplifier,
to the Signal Input of any Amplifier !
As the speaker output signals are way too powerful to feed an input,
and could easily result in a mortally damaged amplifier !
:oops:

I presently am using 8 Powered monitors, and and one -18" Sub, "on a 10 Channel Presonus FP10 interface".

I recommend that you "asap" . get a multi-channel interface also, as this simplifies connecting all the speakers, and improves the tonal quality ! :roll:

(I Built and repaired many organs for almost 60 years, I am now retired !)

I'm more than happy to assist you anytime,
Just DM me your questions, if you wish .

The sweat to get a HW organ playing, is well worth the pleasure you get playing on it ! :roll:

I cannot answer your Sub question at this time, sorry .
Mel


regarding the wiring of the amplifier. I understand now that the audio out from interface would feed into the amplifier, and then from there into speakers; however, what if some speakers were powered vs unpowered (i.e. using my studio monitors which are already powered with 2 speaker towers that would require amplification)? Would the studio monitors as well as towers be able to hook into the back of the amplifier?

Also, considering I only have a 2 channel interface, would I be able to wire in a sub without upgrading the interface just yet?
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 03, 2016 2:14 pm

Hi Monty,

If you add a receiver into the mix, the powered monitors could be connected to the "record out" of the receiver and IF the receiver has a sub out, the sub connected to that, however this is the more complicated way, but it also gives you the option of adding the towers or any other non-powered speakers for that matter, now or later.

Even if you add the towers and sub you can still keep and use your two channel interface, you would then need to purchase a receiver or amp, in that case you would connect things as I describe above. At this point to be safe I'd buy a receiver as you can then be sure it has all the connections you need for the sub and so on vs. a straight amp that may not. If you buy a receiver just be sure along with the usual inputs (CD, AUX etc.) it also has low level audio L/R outs and a sub out. So, for the receiver route you'd connect your current audio interface out to the AUX in (as an example) of the receiver, connect the powered monitors to the low level outs of the receiver, the sub to the sub out of the receiver, and the towers via regular speaker wire from the speaker outs of the receiver.

Now, as Mel points out, there is a more simple way but it won't include the tower option. You can upgrade to a sub with your current interface and it would require nothing else other than a few RCA cables. All you'd want to be sure of is the sub you buy has L/R audio inputs and also L/R outputs (most subs have both), then simply connect the L/R outs from your current audio interface to the L/R inputs on the sub (this then covers the low end), then connect the powered monitors to the L/R outputs of the sub (this covers the rest of the range) and viola your in business, just no towers!

I'd probably go the receiver and sub route, mainly because it would give you more tuning control with the bass and treble which is always good in order to tweak the sound. Keep in mind this won't be true multi-channel as all speakers will receive the same signal (absolutely nothing wrong with that), but it should sound significantly better than it does now.

Marc
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csw900

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostThu Aug 04, 2016 2:34 am

Hi Audiophiles

Nobody has said how large the room is where the organ is fitted. I get the idea that it is
just an ordinary living room rather than a church or theatre. Thus the most important item
necessary to produce frequencies below 50 Hz is one large sub woofer. 18" has
been mentioned and this would be more than adequate.

You also need to bear in mind that you cannot hear much below about 20Hz so anything
below this will just rattle the furniture and cause annoying vibrations especially at high
power.

As far as higher frequencies are concerned I will mention "sound bars" as a convenient
and cheap way to produce modest amounts of good quality sound.

I use a sound bar with sub woofer on my iMac -- it is in a small room and in my
opinion is adequate. The law of diminishing returns applies when you have much more
than this.

csw900
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostThu Aug 04, 2016 10:28 am

Although the upgrade of adding a sub of any decent response capability and then possibly the towers Monty mentions is what I would consider to be more of a minimal approach, it will still make a major improvement in sound! As far as room size, I've been working with slightly less than a 12' x 12' space of somewhat odd shape and with lots of things in the room to skew the sound from day one in my HW adventure. I have tried numerous arrangements over the years starting with a small pair of speakers connected to a boom box in the early stages to now running 10 separate speakers and 2 subs, all strategically placed (important!) with excellent and very realistic results. Unless Monty has his HW arrangement set up in a bedroom closet (I doubt it), I say go for it, add to it as time and funds permit and don't worry too much about the room size, worry more about how it is set up (i.e. speaker selection and placement). Look into multi-channel as the next upgrade (new multi-channel audio interface). As I've found, concentrate on doing it correctly more from the standpoint of your listening position. Don't just hook up speakers, throw them wherever and turn them on. For the best results it may require some work and a few hassles to get things where you want them. It will definitely require tuning and balancing between speakers, it will require the proper routing scheme depending on how many channels of audio you have as well. So, there's much to consider, but in the end you will be rewarded with the results! :)

Marc
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magnaton

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostThu Aug 04, 2016 10:40 am

Hello Monty:

I have the MOTU Ultralite MK3 which is an excellent unit for Hauptwerk. It has 14 outputs (which includes the stereo headphone jack), on-board EQ and reverb if necessary. The only con is the soft-switch so if you are connecting it via USB you'll have to turn it on manually.

Marc answered your basic question in that all HW output is through your audio interface. I'm using a combination of a pair of large Cervin-Vega 3 way speakers and an array of studio monitors. The Cervin-Vegas are powered by a Denon home receiver deck. The MOTU, as most interfaces, uses the ASIO driver recognized by HW. With HW Advanced, you'll see all 14 outputs of the MOTU available.

Starting off I had stereo only and used RCA (female) to 1/4" (male) adapters to connect 2 outputs from the MOTU to the Denon deck. Connecting the self powered studio monitors (also called active monitors) to an audio interface it is recommended to use 1/4" TRS cables for the best sound. As I added more studio monitors, I needed the 1/4" analog ouputs on the MOTU so I switched to the signal for the Denon/CV speakers to the SPDIF output as the Denon has an SPDIF input. I think many AV receivers have these ports.

The CV speakers go down to 25Hz so I haven't been too anxious to purchase a powered subwoofer yet. The popular method to adding a sub is again directly to the audio interface and using the Mix-Down routing in HW channel configuration. This way any organ pipe or harmonic that dips below your 50hz threshold will get picked up by the subwoofer.

Danny B.
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montyjnc

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostMon Aug 08, 2016 8:05 am

Thank you all for your help! You have given me much to think about :). The only issue now is deciding what to upgrade first...
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engrssc

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostTue Aug 09, 2016 3:27 pm

montyjnc wrote: The only issue now is deciding what to upgrade first...


The short answer is to look into your wallet or checking account. But realistically speaking, the best way is to do planning and then do planning, and lastly do planning. Look into a long range setup and then break it down into segments of now, a little later and finally the ultimate. I know that pre-plan is rough on the I want it all now desire, but rushing out and buying a little piece here and another thing there will almost always not give you what you really want and need. Ebay is full of stuff that people have bought haphazardly and later find that "it" isn't the correct item. They then sell it at a much lower price than they paid. Good if you need such an item, but expensive to the seller.

A shortcut, if you will, is to get a very good (and comfortable) set of headphones and a proper connecting device (an interface - there's that word again). That route gets great sound into your ears real quick and buys you time to do a good job of R & D (research and development). That isn't an evasive, way out goal somewhere in never - never land, but being an educated shopper in this "game" really is a good thing.

None of us, at least I don't know of anyone, has been born all knowing. An inquisitive, searching posture will get good results ultimately. And as you have already discovered, there are many very knowledgeable folks who frequent this Forum, sometimes invisible for a while, that when they see a way to help someone will be ready, willing, and most importantly able to do so.

Rgds,
Ed

BTW, more than one headset can be used at the same time if you have a proper interface for such. But usually, that isn't necessarily cost effective. If you are searching for that deep bass feeling, there are devices generically called butt kickers that, as the name implies, can be attached to an organ bench or a home theatre sofa frame and convey that feeling of real bass. An advantage here is that these devices aren't terribly expensive and they don't tread upon family or neighbors at inappropriate times.
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montyjnc

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 10, 2016 8:13 am

Ed,

Thank you for the much needed advice! I should've mentioned, I do own a pair of AKG K701 headphones, and a headphone amplifier. I absolutely love playing with these! Currently, I am working to build a dedicated computer, then upgrade to a new interface (most likely MOTU Ultralite mk3). Following that, I plan to between 4-8 Behringer 2301a monitors as well as 1-2 subwoofers to build my system.
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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 10, 2016 10:10 am

Sounds as if you are on the right track. 8) I use the MOTU Ultralite myself with good results. I have it mounted under the key desk on the right side on a pull out ass'y for easy access. Slides back when I'm finished making "changes". Use a flexible retractable cable harness for connections.

Rgds,
Ed
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montyjnc

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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 10, 2016 10:22 am

Next step... find the 5000$ i need :P
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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 10, 2016 12:29 pm

When you find it, share with the rest of us such a source. Seems even tho we have a good operating setup, there is an eternal insatiable desire for more and better. 8) Not wrong (IMHO) but doesn't seem to always fit the wife's plans. :o

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Need help understanding Amplifiers vs Interfaces

PostWed Aug 10, 2016 8:41 pm

Another Amen, Ed ! :roll:
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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