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How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

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How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby B777Captain » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:15 am

Hi gang...

I'm about to start up again in the HW world with a whole new setup samples etc....

I'm moving into a smaller apartment with neighbours directly above me whereas before when I had my setup, I was by myself and could blast the low pedals to my hearts content... which I love doing. Love the 32 ft Contre of CC organs. Can't wait to get the St Ouen CODM organ when I get going.

The fact theres a high chance of not being able to play at my desired volume level or subwoofer level....
Do some of you not use/have subwoofers with your HW setup.. and if so, does it leave you satisfied enough for the most part or longing for more?

I know about a device to attach to the organ bench to simulate the rumble, but would prefer to real thing if I can somehow swing it..... Or my neighbour turns out to be a famous concert organist!! :-)

Thanks for your input and am open to any suggestions getting around this little issue.

Pat
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby csw900 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:33 am

You could use headphones -- but don't have them too loud or you
will damage your hearing.

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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby josq » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:53 am

I have one but I have decoupled it. I found it very hard to use it at audible levels without generating those irritating booming room resonances and without rattling at least a few loose items in my living room. To me, such artifacts destroy the joy of playing rather than increasing it. Without subwoofer, I may lack the fundamental frequencies of the lowest 32' octave, but because the harmonics are still very present as a nice rumble, I hardly miss it.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby B777Captain » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:29 am

Josq

May I ask what type of speakers you use that give you the satisfaction of enough of low freq tones?

And yes, I'll be using a set of headphones as well. Wondering if my Bose Aviation Headsets will sound acceptable....?

Thanks

Pat
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby TheOrganDoc » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:34 am

I mostly Play my Paramount 3/32 Organ through my AKG 701 Headphones,
from my experience if I increase the Bass level loud enough to balance the uppers, then the ultra Highs of the glockenspiel Intermodulate with the bass notes, resulting in unnatural distortion ! :roll:

I feel that, a "Buttkicker Shaker" mounted under the bench seat,
with rubber isolaters under the bench legs, and with suficient amp. power, would improve the realism when using headphones ! :wink:

Aside from Headphones !

I rarely use my present speaker grouping of 8 Behringer B2031A's,
plus one 18" Commercial Sub, which provide an enjoyable Instrument to Play for my purposes ! :D

Mel
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby Jan Loosman » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:40 pm

Hello Pat.

In smaller appartments leaving a subwoofer out of your setup might be a good thing because the lower notes can't properly buit up in a small space. If you want to have good relations with your neigbours i think also damping your space is a good thing.
Consider heavy curtains, thick carpets, prof. bas traps etc.
Also consider using room correction software like Arc2 for stereo or Dirac for multichannel setups.
These software apps. measure your room and are going to remove al the room resonances, resulting in a much smoother less boomy sound.
I know your neigbours will appreciate these kind of investments/tweaks in your system.

Regards Jan
Last edited by Jan Loosman on Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby sjkartchner » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:39 am

B777Captain wrote:Josq

May I ask what type of speakers you use that give you the satisfaction of enough of low freq tones?

And yes, I'll be using a set of headphones as well. Wondering if my Bose Aviation Headsets will sound acceptable....?

Thanks

Pat


Aviation headsets are not typically optimized for music playback, especially at lower frequencies. I recommend getting a nice set of headphones optimized for music.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby josq » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:19 pm

B777Captain wrote:Josq

May I ask what type of speakers you use that give you the satisfaction of enough of low freq tones?



M-Audio DSM3's (apparently no longer on the market) as the fronts, and BX8a as the rears. The BX8a appear to do a bit better in the low, but for the overall sound, the DSM3's are more satisfying.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby James » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:57 pm

I don't use subs-I have 4 Genelec 8020 front, and 2 Mackie rear. Perhaps I am missing something, but I am blissful in my ignorance. Granted, the Genelec fronts run about $2000 for the four active monitors.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby Romanos » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:40 am

TheOrganDoc wrote:I mostly Play my Paramount 3/32 Organ through my AKG 701 Headphones,
from my experience if I increase the Bass level loud enough to balance the uppers, then the ultra Highs of the glockenspiel Intermodulate with the bass notes, resulting in unnatural distortion ! :roll:

I feel that, a "Buttkicker Shaker" mounted under the bench seat,
with rubber isolaters under the bench legs, and with suficient amp. power, would improve the realism when using headphones ! :wink:

Aside from Headphones !

I rarely use my present speaker grouping of 8 Behringer B2031A's,
plus one 18" Commercial Sub, which provide an enjoyable Instrument to Play for my purposes ! :D

Mel



I was going to suggest the same thing. Headphones with some bass shakers mounted under the bench (something I've been eyeing for a while now...). There's also a sub back pack on the market now that, from the reviews, people seem to love. Your brain fills in the sound based on the frequencies it's feeling.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby deftech » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:09 pm

I am still experimenting but currently not using separate subwoofers. I'm sending pedal ranks to two Definative Technology 8060 towers and two 8040 towers. They work great for 16 foot and up. Some day I'll try some subwoofers with 32 foot ranks. My manual ranks are going to eight 8020 towers. The lower notes of 16 foot manual ranks fade but that doesn't bother me on the manuals.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby MikeOfBonsall » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:27 am

Sub-woofers are mostly for "special effects" not sonic purity. IF you have good full range speakers you DO NOT need a sub-woofer. HOWEVER, having said that quality full range speakers that can handle big power are expensive and if economy forces you to use poor speakers that are not flat and loose bass then there is a argument for some mild bass support.

Personally I have two systems. One with B&W 801 studio monitors driven by a Krell Class A and one with Vandersteen model 2CE driven by large NADs and neither of these systems need a subwoofer.
Regards,

Mike Stevens, Bonsall California
Console: Allen TC-1. Two manuals, AGO pedalboard, 34 thumb pistons, 4 toe pistons. Midi cards from DTS. Amplification Krell KSA250 stereo, Speakers B&W 801 Series3. Favorite Sample Set Grafthorst-027 (Bad Ass SubBas16)
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby jkinkennon » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:30 am

The B&W 801's are one of a very few full range speakers that can be considered full range for organ music, either recorded or from Hauptwerk. In the vast majority of cases a sub is needed if one intends to reproduce the lowest fundamentals of a 32' rank. That isn't a necessity for everyone, but at the same time a sub is not for special effects except in the home theater market. Also, most subs can't get below 25 Hz or so and are actually designed that way. This includes a majority of the pro audio subs.

For multichannel audio where cost limits most of us to studio monitors which sound great down to 50 Hz or so a sub is essential IF we need the low end of even a 16' rank. For straight stereo a pair of genuinely full range speakers which go to 30 Hz or so can be great by themselves.

Then there's the problem that 90% of the subs we will ever hear need turned down a little or sometimes a lot. My rule of thumb is if you notice that sub it's probably set too loud.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby RichardW » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:56 am

jkinkennon wrote:My rule of thumb is if you notice that sub it's probably set too loud.
My thoughts exactly.

A B&W 801 solution would not suit me because floor standing speakers would not be convenient. My room is small and I prefer the drivers to point directly at me. They weigh over 100lbs so fixing them to a wall would not be a good idea, either!

B&W 801s comprise a 1" tweeter, 5" mid-range and 12" woofer. That describes my system, too, except that the 12" sub is not in the same box as the others. Also, the bottom end of the 801s is electronically tweaked to raise the low end response - as is my sub.

My sub sits on the floor but the other speakers are at ear-level for best effect. Also, I have four in a surround configuration and I am leaving open the option to increase the number of speakers later. That is an option because the size of my upper range monitors is very small and so will fit my room.
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Re: How many DO NOT use a Subwoofer?

Postby MikeOfBonsall » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:25 pm

If you can get an old 60's 70's speaker box that came with the early digital Allen organs or simila they work very well. I have one that came with my console and I am quite impressed with it and you often see them on craigslist for virtually nothing.
I will add this though about speakers. Just like tires on a car, the speakers are the bits that connect to the road. You should be spending at least as much on your speakers as your console and computing and software combined.
Regards,

Mike Stevens, Bonsall California
Console: Allen TC-1. Two manuals, AGO pedalboard, 34 thumb pistons, 4 toe pistons. Midi cards from DTS. Amplification Krell KSA250 stereo, Speakers B&W 801 Series3. Favorite Sample Set Grafthorst-027 (Bad Ass SubBas16)
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