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A new way to connect your sub(s)

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A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby 1961TC4ME » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:45 pm

Hi all,

Maybe some of you are already doing this, but here's a little trick I came up with recently and I really like the results. First off, after much testing with different speaker and routing arrangements I've become a firm believer that the entire signal, not just pedal notes or other certain ranks should go to my subs, in my honest opinion the sub(s) should receive everything from the top on down, we can start a separate debate on this if needed but..... read on.

I've been experimenting with sending certain ranks, mainly the 16' and lower pedal ranks to my 15" sub and other 16' and 8' ranks such as from the manuals to my second 10" sub. The results were with OK, but the lower end portion of the sound seemed to have a few holes in it in some areas and just too much output and boom in others. Just for reference I have each sub placed in opposite corners of the room behind me. What I was not liking in addition to these so called holes and boom in the sound was the fact that the 15" sub no matter what was always kind of stealing the show and I could hear it more so than my smaller 10" sub and this created a situation where a majority of the lows were coming more from one corner of the room.

Revelation: My sound card has an S/PDIF output which is channels 9/10, so I got the idea to set up 9/10 as mix down receiving everything from channels 1 through 8 and to connect both subs to 9/10 so they are now receiving not only the entire signal, they are receiving exactly the same signal as well. I connected the RCA cable from 9/10 to the inputs of the 15" sub and then went from it's outputs to the inputs of the 10" sub.

To do this it will require you pick up an inexpensive digital to analog converter such as one of these >> https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=6884

Results? Much, smoother and even bass / low end response across the board than I've ever had before, no boom on the sets I've tried it on so far, no more bass focus from one corner of the room, and I now have full independent control of the subs only without disrupting the output of any other speaker in the chain. Plus, it is now much easier to adjust the input to the subs individually which I can do either directly from HW or from my sound card control panel, and it sure beats having to get up and play around with the volume controls on the subs themselves. :wink:

For you multi channel folks, I'd highly recommend giving this a try and see what you think.

Marc
Last edited by 1961TC4ME on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New way to connect your sub(s)

Postby engrssc » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:45 pm

Not everyone realizes that low (pedal) tones have harmonics on either side of the fundamental frequency which you "need" to hear.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby organtechnology » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:23 am

This is why we feed the subs from the headphone 'mixdown' channel. Always have.

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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby magnaton » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:57 am

Hi Marc:

Like you, I really enjoy the multi-channel and routing aspect of Haptwerk.

I'm assuming since the 15" sub was previously a dedicated rout for the pedal stops, you now divvied those ranks amongst your other 8 channels? Was it a couple here, a couple there or did you devise a more formulated design?

BTW, the Paramount Organ Works website has a pdf that shows a sub cabinet or cabinets in a mixdown configuration. This makes sense for a TO as the 16s are almost always an extension (additional 12 notes down) of the main pipe ranks.


engrssc wrote:Not everyone realizes that low (pedal) tones have harmonics on either side of the fundamental frequency which you "need" to hear.

Exactly! In fact John mentions that in his post here on a church installation with a TubaHT Sub
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15699&p=118858#p117675

Would it suffice to say for a home installation a sub mix-down is a better or economical design where as a large venue its best to dedicate a full range (or two-way) speaker plus subwoofer combo as a dedicated pedal division?

Regards,

Danny B.
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby engrssc » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:55 am

Most sub amps do a fairly good job of filtering frequencies such the large drivers get the right mix of the low end sound.

On Easter Sunday, the final song was Allelujah, He Has Risen and the House Wrecker sub with it's 18" drivers made sure everyone felt the pedal line even down thru their feet. Those 4 drivers have a 1200 watt plate amp making them "sing". :o The H/W "sits" directly on the concrete floor which help promote good low freq transmission.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby scottherbert » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:24 am

Sorry if I am just being dense here, but are you recommending the sub be used withOUT a crossover? Or how are you achieving those higher harmonics? :?

~S
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby 1961TC4ME » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:36 am

magnaton wrote:Hi Marc:

Like you, I really enjoy the multi-channel and routing aspect of Haptwerk.

I'm assuming since the 15" sub was previously a dedicated rout for the pedal stops, you now divvied those ranks amongst your other 8 channels? Was it a couple here, a couple there or did you devise a more formulated design?

BTW, the Paramount Organ Works website has a pdf that shows a sub cabinet or cabinets in a mixdown configuration. This makes sense for a TO as the 16s are almost always an extension (additional 12 notes down) of the main pipe ranks.


engrssc wrote:Not everyone realizes that low (pedal) tones have harmonics on either side of the fundamental frequency which you "need" to hear.

Exactly! In fact John mentions that in his post here on a church installation with a TubaHT Sub
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15699&p=118858#p117675

Would it suffice to say for a home installation a sub mix-down is a better or economical design where as a large venue its best to dedicate a full range (or two-way) speaker plus subwoofer combo as a dedicated pedal division?

Regards,

Danny B.


Hi Danny,

In my previous routing scheme I was running the 15" sub off one of my 2-channel amps that is also connected to a pair of larger 2-way Yamaha speakers. I was sending either all of the pedal ranks to this amp / sub or was sending just the 8' and lower pedal ranks to it, all with varying results.

What's nice about the set up I outline is it really doesn't matter which speakers you send what to as with 9/10 being mix down and connected only to the subs they are receiving the entire signal no matter what and will do their job. What I also like as I mentioned is I now have complete independent control over just the subs without having to do or change anything with my larger 2-ways, something I could not control with the previous arrangement. I can now also adjust each other channel's outputs individually with no effect on the subs, so this offers much more flexibility.

Hi Ed,

With this arrangement you could also be quite surprised by what you don't hear, those low pass filters really do their thing and I was surprised to hear what little in a way the subs are actually doing, you hear mostly just the very low notes and not much more which fades off quickly as you work your way up the ladder! But, I at least now know the subs are getting the entire signal vs. just parts of it.

I think for a home set-up and having a limited number of audio channels which most of us face (in my case 10 channels total), this is ideal because I have also basically freed up 2 additional channels to do / send whatever I like to them now without having to take into consideration what effect it will have on the subs.

Hi Scott,

Nope, just hook the sub up as is. As I mention it's quite surprising when you listen to the subs all by themselves what little you actually hear. This of course can be dialed up or down some using your crossovers, but I tested the St. Max this morning using the higher pitched mixture ranks, you really don't hear them at all through the sub, so again it's quite surprising to hear what exactly the subs are actually doing, but again, with this arrangement you are insured they are getting everything possible.

Marc
Last edited by 1961TC4ME on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby engrssc » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:43 am

The sub amp has several adjustments such as high end cutoff (roll off) or slope making it possible to "blend" the sub into the environment of the other speakers.. The next higher sprks are 3 way with 15" woofers. This way there's no abrupt change over from the main spkrs with respect to the sub. And these 3 way's carry quite a bit of the pedal harmonics. Helpful is the fact that these low freq"s are not (very) directional.

The sub, BTW, is in a corner and is driven from the S/PDIF output of the MOTU UltraLite MK2. All 8 channels are mixed to feed the S/PDIF port.

(We haven't attempted to levitate a piece of carpet with the House Wrecker as it is reported to be able to do.) :shock: But it can be heard (and possibly felt) out in the parking lot.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby 1961TC4ME » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:12 pm

engrssc wrote:The sub amp has several adjustments such as high end cutoff (roll off) or slope making it possible to "blend" the sub into the environment of the other speakers.. The next higher sprks are 3 way with 15" woofers. This way there's no abrupt change over from the main spkrs with respect to the sub. And these 3 way's carry quite a bit of the pedal harmonics. Helpful is the fact that these low freq"s are not (very) directional.

The sub, BTW, is in a corner and is driven from the S/PDIF output of the MOTU UltraLite MK2. All 8 channels are mixed to feed the S/PDIF port.

(We haven't attempted to levitate a piece of carpet with the House Wrecker as it is reported to be able to do.) :shock: But it can be heard (and possibly felt) out in the parking lot.

Rgds,
Ed


Hi Ed,

Haha! Levitating carpet and car windows rattling out in the parking lot is a good thing! :lol:

This also reaffirms my belief that unless you have book shelf sized monitors / speakers that can get down and dirty into the lower notes, it's imperative to have at least one larger pair of speakers be they 2 or 3 way in the mix as this definitely fills in the gaps and aids in the overall blending. Having independent and separate control over them and the subs is also a big plus.

Marc
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby engrssc » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:27 pm

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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby magnaton » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:25 pm

Hey Marc:

You may have overlooked my other question. Since your pedal stops are no longer dedicated to channels 9/10, how did you divvy them up over the other 8 channels?

Danny B.
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby jwillans » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:31 pm

I have read the original post a few times and I'm not sure whether I am missing something. The scheme sounds like the standard mixdown output that is the standard fare for using subs with HW. Am I missing something?
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby 1961TC4ME » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:31 pm

magnaton wrote:Hey Marc:

You may have overlooked my other question. Since your pedal stops are no longer dedicated to channels 9/10, how did you divvy them up over the other 8 channels?

Danny B.


Hi Danny,

Being 9/10 is a mix down of all, the pedal stops are in effect not necessarily dedicated to 9/10, everything is. But since 9/10 is connected to the subs and receives everything, hence they deal with the lows from there. What I'm now doing is routing the entire pedal division to the amp with the larger 2-way Yamaha speakers, so I can also do some fine tuning of the low notes there as well and make for better blending between them and the subs. In some cases if the pedal has a mixture or other high pitched stops as an example, I will then group them in with the other high pitched stops to a separate pair of speakers as I've been routing ranks to channel pairs based on them being like sounding which for me has given the best overall results, clairity and realism. I had a post on this 'like sounding' routing scheme I did awhile back and continue to use it to this day.

Here's a short explanation of what I do for the most part with routing, some of this subject to personal tastes / judgement:

Channels 1/2: All pedal stops with a few exceptions, pedal mixtures to 5/6 as an example
Channels 3/4: All 8' and 4' flute sounding stops and maybe some 2' again with some exceptions
Channels 5/6: Anything 1' or higher, maybe some 2's
Channels 7/8: Rear surroud
Channels 9/10: Mix down of all to subs
I'm a bit different when it comes to reeds. If the set is reed heavy such as the St. Max, I send them to 3/4, but I send the bombarde to 1/2 for best effect with the Yamaha speakers adding in on the fun. :lol: For a set with limited or quieter reeds like Dingelsteadt, I send them to 1/2.

Marc
Last edited by 1961TC4ME on Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby 1961TC4ME » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:44 pm

jwillans wrote:I have read the original post a few times and I'm not sure whether I am missing something. The scheme sounds like the standard mixdown output that is the standard fare for using subs with HW. Am I missing something?


Nope, not missing anything really. In a nutshell, yes, it's just a mix down of all to the subs only. The main things I'm pointing out here in addition to liking the outcome is you gain an extra pair of channels by using the S/PDIF and you can keep the subs totally separate of any other amps or speakers thus allowing for easy adjustment of all channels without upsetting any other speakers or signals as they are now all separate. Up to this point I was not using these 2 additional channels and I suspect others here have this S/PDIF option as well but are also not using it.

As far as what I've read here, unless there's been some complete revolution as of late, I've seen a lot of routing schemes of only certain ranks to the subs, mono routing and so on, some of these routing schemes which are outlined in the HW users manual as suggestions to try. If others have discovered or are using a mix down to the subs, then I say good, you're doing the right thing! 8)

Marc
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Re: A new way to connect your sub(s)

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:13 pm

I intentionally have all my pedal stops and 16' manual stops going to their own speaker systems both in the front and the rear. I wanted to separate them from the manual stops to gain better clarity.

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