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New LiquidSonics Reverb

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New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby jkinkennon » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:23 pm

LiquidSonics has introduced a pair of new reverb plugins, Seventh Heaven and Seventh Heaven Professional which may interest Hauptwerk users. The first is quite affordable, the second full-featured. Both require an iLok 2 or iLok 3 dongle for licensing. I presume they were seeing too much unscrupulous sharing of the Reverberate products.

The new features are explained at https://www.liquidsonics.com/software/seventh-heaven-professional/ so I won't go into a lot of detail except to say that the products are a blend of their convolution reverbs, their Fusion-IR technology, and extensive sampling of the Bricasti M7 hardware reverb.

I'm waiting on delivery of an iLok 3 from Sweetwater so it will be Thursday of Friday before I can share any first hand experience. I'm expecting to see easier setups with a few basic controls -- that would be an improvement for many users, myself included. Expect to set aside 10GB of disk space if loading all of the included samples. 8GB of memory is recommended so that could impact users with marginal RAM.
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby organsRgreat » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:39 am

I bought the then current Liquidsonics reverb a few months ago, when jkinkennon kindly posted the information that it was available for a significant reduction because of Black Friday. I'm delighted with the improvement in the sound of all my organs, and have only needed to slightly tweak the available presets to produce a result I'm happy with. Perhaps I'm at an early stage of learning to listen to reverberation, but at the moment I can't imagine how the programmers could produce anything better.
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby jkinkennon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:32 pm

There is a five star LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven review here:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/reviews ... ional.html

I received the iLok dongle today so I've only had time to play a few familiar MIDI files. I knocked the Goerlitz set back to the dry "Direct" channel and added reverb via the surround speakers. I then loaded a smaller Paramount set and tried some of the smaller hall presets. Bottom line, this reverb is easy to use and as natural a sound as I have heard.

It's unfortunate that even the two week demo version requires the iLok ($45) which is going to stop some from giving this product a listen. Anyone here in the Pacific Northwest is welcome to come visit and try it out. Perhaps I could add reverb to someone's dry HW recording and post it here.

I haven't tried running multiple instances or using Seventh Heaven with a basic two speaker setup so I'll have more to add in a week or so. For now I'll just say that I find the sound as convincing as the wet Direct, Diverse, Surround setup that I've been using. Both the wet and the dry plus reverb methods sound great, but I wonder if the added reverb method doesn't sound more natural to my ears in my listening room.
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby jkinkennon » Sun May 14, 2017 9:17 pm

I think today (Sunday) may be the last change to get the discounted price on the Seventh Heaven Reverb from LiquidSonics. There's also an additional discount for owners of Reverberate 2.

Really enjoying the natural sound though like organsRgreat pointed out Reverberate 2 is mighty good already. It has been impossible to do a proper A/B comparison but I'm impressed that I can set up a reverb and then find that I don't notice it at all after the initial trial. It just sound that believable as it doesn't jump out and demand your attention.
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby Andrew Grahame » Wed May 17, 2017 7:00 am

I've just installed "Seventh Heaven" reverb. At first impression it's very good. Easy to use, natural sounding - I like it. A couple of very quick short uploads to CCH using the PAB Gravissimo sample set, loaded dry, with a smooth 4-second reverb added using the "Vienna Hall" preset - links below.

I like to load PAB/G if I just want a "big organ" to play. Lots of colour and power, plenty of tonal options especially if the octave couplers are used. Loading it dry at 24-bit resolution allows the full Gravissimo to fit into my 32GB computer. I don't care for its rather dry, brittle natural acoustic - and the so-called "Cathedral" option is (for me) unusable. Adding an external reverb via a plug-in does the trick nicely. This one was by far the easiest I've ever set up.

Andrew

http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/music/25630

http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/music/25631
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby 1961TC4ME » Thu May 18, 2017 11:54 am

I guess I'm the one that is now somewhat "bewildered." Great to get out the news of something new and it could be good in certain circumstances such as you only own one or two dry sets (and nothing else) that you just couldn't live without, but why on earth someone would fiddle around and spend $300 - $350 for something that in the long run will not give the realism of a sample set that already has the real acoustics included, especially given the fact there are so MANY choices in good wet sets these days? Nobody take offense here, but it seems to me anyways that some are kidding themselves into thinking that this is some kind of cost savings option as opposed to buying a wet set. But, by the time you buy a dry set which generally are not much less than wet sets if we're comparing quality to quality, then throw this on top of it, you could have just gone out and picked up a very nice wet set in the first place, saved computer resources, and no fiddling around with fake reverb for about the same money. If you've got the resources to purchase this along with a number of good dry sets (how many really are there? Not many.), you've got the resources to buy the wet set in the first place.

Just my 2-1/2 cents worth.

Marc
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby jkinkennon » Thu May 18, 2017 12:54 pm

Do not assume that a recorded set of ambiance responses will necessarily sound better than a reverb created using impulse samples of real spaces combined with the best reverb technology. There are way too many variables to make such a blanket assumption.

Additionally, there can be conflicting goals in achieving our desired sound. Some will want to most accurately recreate the original historic space of the sampled organ. That's perhaps what most of us prefer. Others may desire to create a smaller ambiance that we find more believable in our homes. I find it interesting that I can easily "tune out" the listening room and hear a cathedral, others find this quite impossible to accomplish. Not unlike going to the theater or a movie. Some can easily become absorbed in the event while others find themselves distracted by a variety of not quite right qualities in the event. If a wet sample set comes across as drowning in reverb then there are few options except to turn down the reverb channels and perhaps truncate the reverb tails.

I find I can recreate a large wet set's ambiance with Seventh Heaven or that I can improve it based on my own needs, preferences, and intended uses. Add to that this reverb's ease of use and you have a capability that many will appreciate. I agree that it is not really a cost saving measure.
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby 1961TC4ME » Thu May 18, 2017 11:31 pm

jkinkennon wrote:Do not assume that a recorded set of ambiance responses will necessarily sound better than a reverb created using impulse samples of real spaces combined with the best reverb technology. There are way too many variables to make such a blanket assumption.

Additionally, there can be conflicting goals in achieving our desired sound. Some will want to most accurately recreate the original historic space of the sampled organ. That's perhaps what most of us prefer. Others may desire to create a smaller ambiance that we find more believable in our homes. I find it interesting that I can easily "tune out" the listening room and hear a cathedral, others find this quite impossible to accomplish. Not unlike going to the theater or a movie. Some can easily become absorbed in the event while others find themselves distracted by a variety of not quite right qualities in the event. If a wet sample set comes across as drowning in reverb then there are few options except to turn down the reverb channels and perhaps truncate the reverb tails.


I'm not assuming anything and this isn't my first rodeo when it comes to reverbs, so I guess you won't be converting me any time soon. I'm also able to easily tune out my listening environment and enjoy my own cathedral in my 12' x 12' space without the need of any additional reverb trickery and the complications that typically come with it. This comes through speaker positioning and anything short of that is a crutch for a less than ideal speaker layout. With the proper layout I'll put the real recorded ambience / acoustic up against added $350 dollar reverb any day of the week, especially when we're considering. the newer 6 channel sets, and also especially when you start playing around truncating a wet set which I figured would likely be brought up as some kind of advantage, to me yet another crutch. Real processors also cost thousands not hundreds, and with a good layout we might then have a real comparison. Movie theates don't just throw up some speakers wherever and add reverb and hope it sounds good, it doesn't work that way. If you want things to sound like a good movie theater take close observation as to how the speakers are laid out, no reverb will make up for a poor speaker arrangement. Rather than fiddling around with reverbs I'd advise to spend your efforts on your speaker layout first and you'll save yourself a lot of time, money, and frustration. Once you have that part dialed in a good modern surround wet set (and I can rattle off a long list of them that will blow you out of the water) will give you everything you wanted and then some.

For now we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, and has been said here before, what matters most is you like it and it sounds good to you.

Marc
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri May 19, 2017 12:53 am

I might also add, no speaker of any quality will make up for a poor layout. If you want the best realism, invest in a good modern surround set first, then invest your time in the proper layout next. If you really want to achieve maximum realism it will take effort and going outside of the box. If you're willing to put in the effort vs. just tossing speakers on a shelf or wherever is convenient, the rewards will pay you back in spades.

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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby jkinkennon » Sat May 20, 2017 12:08 am

We're getting off topic I think. No one thinks that speaker placement is unimportant. My twelve channels are laid out in a way which I'm happy with, not being able to locate the console away from the wall for fear of the spousal disapproval factor. I run three pairs in front with a center speaker above the console. Two rear speakers are high on a back wall but are able to bounce a little sound off the back side walls. The sub is at the rooms tallest corner. Two speakers in the console carry the higher pedal frequencies. Those who have heard the setup have liked it a lot.

I've had some exposure to a number of Sonus Paradisi sample sets including Velesovo, Rotterdam, several demos and composites such as Zurek v5, Kdousov, and especially the Goerlitz samples which I use 90% of the time. These are all great sample sets and I only wish I could afford more. My use of reverbs including the LiquidSonics products has been for theater organ samples, Magnuskerk Anloo, and the dry Major I set from Etcetera. Lately I've had occasion to try small touches of reverb with dry sample sets in a pair of churches. These were cases where dry sets were needed but the sanctuary did not have quite enough reverb to hide the chopped-off effect at the end of notes which harkens back to the sound of older organ technology in residences.

It turns out that I always use Reaper for my 12 speaker setup, primarily for the availability of filter plugins to keep low frequencies off of speakers that cannot properly handle them. This also results in better clarity and power handling for the six primary front speakers. I also mix and distribute the 6-channel Diffuse tracks separately as three stereo channels and then reintroduce them to the front speakers at about -3dB with a mono mix to the center speaker. So I use all 6 channels in varying level relationships and the result is wonderful.

Now for the reverb. First one has to try it and hear the results. One of the fun facts about Seventh Heaven is that in addition to ordinary convolution impulse responses and the LiquidSonics Fusion enhancements, they have also done extensive SAMPLING of how the famous and extremely pricey Bricasti M7 hardware reverb unit produces its hundreds of reverbs. The LiquidSonics site describes exactly what the relationship is but suffice to say that the results are licensed from Bricasti. So that hardware sound gets combined with classic convolution for an impressive result.

I find the marketing hype to be thoroughly justified. I hear the exact same fast left/right shimmer in the rear surround channels that I hear using the Goerlitz rear channels. I find that remarkable. If others do not that's fine as well. I'm glad a couple of forum members gave it a try and had similar reactions. The reviews so far are saying the same.

I find it easy to create a Goerlitz experience with just a couple seconds of reverb for practice. I've not gotten results as good trying to modify the Goerlitz fixed channels, great as they are in their own right. One of the challenges without Reaper and LiquidSonics is that the smaller acoustic lacks a consistent distance in that while flutes and especially strings may sound 10 or 20 feet removed, I'll select a reed and it will sound as close as the closest speakers. Yeah, I haven't tried all the EQ possibilities, but for sure it's an easy adjustment with Seventh Heaven. Everyone's mileage may vary, but do consider this product if you can justify the cost.
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Re: New LiquidSonics Reverb

Postby murph » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:51 pm

I've finally gotten around to giving this a go (Mainly because all the I-loks were attached to things, so I had to get a new one for the HW computer).
WOW!
The non-pro version is fantastic. I've immediately bought it. Still messing with the pro, but not sure it's needed. The eq functions don't work the same way as reverberate, or reverberate2 do, which is disappointing. The time-based eq on the tails was the best thing about the old versions. I cannot make 7th pro do the same things.
Some of the adjustments don't really do much good to the sound, but probably work well for plates etc.

For the Rotterdam dry sets, Fccla Skinner etc, the east church on fronts with 50/50 dry wet, 75% early and up the VLF works quite well.
The rears get west church, 35ms delay, full wet, 40/60 e/l and tweak the length a bit to suit the organ.
Sound just like sitting at the front of the gallery.
The Rotterdam party horns really need separate treatment. I'll get around to trying per division settings, eventually, but for now it's nice to finally get good sound from bone-dry samples. (Even FCCLA sounds good!)
I'll let PAB load and see how it transplants to a church later (Haven't cached it on the Reaper alt yet).
The SO Studio 80 should sound good with it too.
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