Search:
Submit Search


Subwoofer

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Subwoofer

Postby atugores » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:48 am

Hello to all of you, my audio HW system has 4 speakers with an 8” woofer, now I would like to add a subwoofer, do you think one with a 10” will be enough ?, or it should be beager than 10” (maybe 12” or 15”), thank you very much for your help.
atugores
Member
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:03 pm

Re: Subwoofer

Postby mdyde » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:47 am

Hello atugores,

[I've moved your topic here, since it's a general question about amplification hardware, rather than a Hauptwerk software technical support question per-se.]

I would say that the speaker size isn't necessarily the most important criterion alone -- the performance it achieves, in terms of frequency response, amplitude, phase, etc. are more important (although, very broadly, larger speakers do tend to be able to handle lower frequencies and higher amplitudes better, all else being equal). However, lots of Hauptwerk users on this forum have experience with sub-woofers, so others will probably be better-placed to make specific recommendations.
Best regards,
Martin.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]

Image
User avatar
mdyde
Moderator
 
Posts: 10410
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
Location: UK

Re: Subwoofer

Postby jkinkennon » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:00 pm

A 15" sub is likely to go down to all but the last half-octave of a 32' rank while maintaining good efficiency. As the driver size decreases it becomes necessary to incorporate filtering to boost the lowest response thus wasting some power which equals lower efficiency.

The filtering or equalization can be passive but the better subs will use some form of voicecoil feedback or carefully programmed boost to get the bottom range. The more advanced circuitry to do servo type feedback will add to the cost.

The bottom line is that a 10" driver can do the job with the right design and with the understanding that the 10" driver with power wasting equalization will not produce the highest output. So it's all a tradeoff. I'd stick with at least a 12" driver and go with 15" if BOTH higher output and a flat response to 16Hz is the goal. I don't think the 15" driver is a requirement for normal organ volume in a residential space.
jkinkennon
Member
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:43 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Subwoofer

Postby dhm » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:21 pm

Several of our home-use customers use the M-Audio SBX-10 (aka BX Subwoofer), which (in theory, at least) goes down to 20Hz and is keenly priced (under GB£300). Another model that claims 20Hz is the Presonus Temblor 10 (just over £300), but I haven't yet tested this one.
Douglas Henn-Macrae
Authorized Hauptwerk Reseller
http://www.midi-organs.eu / http://www.gundulf.org.uk
User avatar
dhm
Member
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:50 am
Location: Rochester, UK

Re: Subwoofer

Postby organtechnology » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:57 pm

dhm wrote:Several of our home-use customers use the M-Audio SBX-10 (aka BX Subwoofer), which (in theory, at least) goes down to 20Hz and is keenly priced (under GB£300). Another model that claims 20Hz is the Presonus Temblor 10 (just over £300), but I haven't yet tested this one.


HI,
I have tested and use the Presonus Temblor and like it very much for 16ft. ranks.

Thomas
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

Authorized Hauptwerk Dealer; Milan Digital Audio Dealer..
User avatar
organtechnology
Member
 
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:58 pm
Location: DFW, TX USA

Re: Subwoofer

Postby organtechnology » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:59 pm

jkinkennon wrote:A 15" sub is likely to go down to all but the last half-octave of a 32' rank while maintaining good efficiency. As the driver size decreases it becomes necessary to incorporate filtering to boost the lowest response thus wasting some power which equals lower efficiency.

The filtering or equalization can be passive but the better subs will use some form of voicecoil feedback or carefully programmed boost to get the bottom range. The more advanced circuitry to do servo type feedback will add to the cost.

The bottom line is that a 10" driver can do the job with the right design and with the understanding that the 10" driver with power wasting equalization will not produce the highest output. So it's all a tradeoff. I'd stick with at least a 12" driver and go with 15" if BOTH higher output and a flat response to 16Hz is the goal. I don't think the 15" driver is a requirement for normal organ volume in a residential space.


Hi John,
Who else besides Rythmik builds a servo sub-woofer?

T
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

Authorized Hauptwerk Dealer; Milan Digital Audio Dealer..
User avatar
organtechnology
Member
 
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:58 pm
Location: DFW, TX USA

Re: Subwoofer

Postby engrssc » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:23 pm

User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5113
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Subwoofer

Postby jkinkennon » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:30 pm

organtechnology wrote:
Hi John,
Who else besides Rythmik builds a servo sub-woofer?


Not sure, Thomas. You could easily pay Rythmik Audio a visit as they are located in a suburb north of Austin. I had read of stability issues with the servo designs and it is likely that many manufacturers are favoring built in DSP with a response tailored to measurements of their subs frequency response. That's a lot easier now that the equalization doesn't require custom, complicated filtering.

Genesis and Velodyne come to mind for manufacturers but I don't keep up with current sub design.
jkinkennon
Member
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:43 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Subwoofer

Postby scottherbert » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:54 pm

GR-research.com has 12 inch direct servo woofers for both open baffle and sealed enclosures. They come in 4, 8 an 16 Ohm models. They used to have an 8 incher as well, but it seems to be temporarily out of stock.

~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
scottherbert
Member
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: Southern Colorado, USA

Re: Subwoofer

Postby johnstump_organist » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:34 pm

Found this on the AVS forum:
There are several $1000.00 subs that will do 100db @ 16hz in a small bedroom...HSU VTF-15.2, PSA V1500, Rythmik FVx 15, RA Echo 15...take your pick.

I am very happy with my DefTech SuperCUbe II, no longer made, but the current equivalent is the SuperCube 4000.

John
User avatar
johnstump_organist
Member
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:15 pm
Location: San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato, Mexico

Re: Subwoofer

Postby RichardW » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:29 pm

johnstump_organist wrote:Found this on the AVS forum:
There are several $1000.00 subs that will do 100db @ 16hz in a small bedroom...HSU VTF-15.2, PSA V1500, Rythmik FVx 15, RA Echo 15...take your pick.

OK, but a chart of a similar speaker is shown in this review and a table of figures for the HSU VTF-15.2 is included below it. http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-re ... subwoofers

You can see that, from the table, the sub is down 3dBs at nearer to 31Hz. While you might get 16Hz out of it, it won't be flat down to that point. You really only need a sub for the fundamentals of the lowest octave of the 32' pipes - and that is the part where the HSU VTF-15.2 is rolling off. (Assuming you have some good 8" monitors for the upper frequencies.) Most subs I have seen are very similar. Whatever the marketing people say, you will be very lucky to get that last octave anywhere near flat.

Sorry, rant over. ;)

Regards,
Richard
User avatar
RichardW
Member
 
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:16 am
Location: UK

Re: Subwoofer

Postby dw154515 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:19 pm

RichardW wrote:
johnstump_organist wrote:Found this on the AVS forum:
There are several $1000.00 subs that will do 100db @ 16hz in a small bedroom...HSU VTF-15.2, PSA V1500, Rythmik FVx 15, RA Echo 15...take your pick.

OK, but a chart of a similar speaker is shown in this review and a table of figures for the HSU VTF-15.2 is included below it. http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-re ... subwoofers

You can see that, from the table, the sub is down 3dBs at nearer to 31Hz. While you might get 16Hz out of it, it won't be flat down to that point. You really only need a sub for the fundamentals of the lowest octave of the 32' pipes - and that is the part where the HSU VTF-15.2 is rolling off. (Assuming you have some good 8" monitors for the upper frequencies.) Most subs I have seen are very similar. Whatever the marketing people say, you will be very lucky to get that last octave anywhere near flat.

Sorry, rant over. ;)

Regards,


You're likely not going to find a sub capable of flat response to 16hz in the home market. Anything you read saying otherwise is being generous. Even the TubaHT - a behemoth 15" folded horn sub that I've built - rolls off around the mid 20s but even in a massive sanctuary it fills the place. Low frequency needs big spaces, anyway. So, in a home, you're not likely to get a true 16hz fundamental regardless.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html
Drew A. Worthen
Innovative Audio Video Solutions - Owner
http://www.innovativeaudiovideosolutions.com
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Subwoofer

Postby jkinkennon » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:23 pm

The Genesis and Velodyne pricing is prohibitive for most of us. We are talking $4000 and up for 15" servo subs. I built the Rythmik Audio enclosure from their plans and spent just $800 plus shipping for the servo amp and driver. The flat response down to subsonic frequencies is real, but it's hardly an absolute necessity to have this capability in order to enjoy great organ sound. The fully assembled F15HP is a sealed servo unit with free shipping within the continental U.S. at $1282. There may be comparable products available that I haven't run into from other manufacturers.
jkinkennon
Member
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:43 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Subwoofer

Postby atugores » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:27 am

Thank you to all of you for you answers and opinions, I've seen different subwoofers by now, some have to inputs an two outputs for passive speakers and some have only one, but the think is, I want to use the subwoofer alone without speakers, so the question is ¿can I use one of those subs without speakers or I need a kind a special sub for tha?t, I read the Paramount organ recommended audio configuration and is clearly explained, but some persons that sale audio equipment in my city told me that if a use a sub without the passive speakers it would damage cause the sound above the high cut does not have a way out, it sounds to me very strange but I'm not a technical person so I don't know, can I request your opinions one more time ?, thank you.
atugores
Member
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:03 pm

Re: Subwoofer

Postby scottherbert » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:10 am

Hello atugores, what they mean is that a subwoofer can only make the low sounds, very low sounds. If you want something to make the higher sounds you have to have it go to other speakers, like the ones you said you have with the 8 inch woofers. If the subwoofer has an "out" or output to another pair of speakers, it will cut off the sound at a certain frequency where it is too high for the subwoofer to do well and let the other speakers take over. I hope this helps make sense. :roll:

Another way is to just use a separate line for a subwoofer, and separate lines for your other speakers. The subwoofer then will play up to the point where you choose it to cut off (it will give you a "cut off point" on the back) and your other speakers will play where they play from.

I am thinking that the person you talked to did not understand that you had other speakers, and that is why he said the rest of the music would not get out.

~S
Last edited by scottherbert on Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
scottherbert
Member
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: Southern Colorado, USA

Next

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests