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Some speaker advice needed

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Some speaker advice needed

Postby Mcguckind » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:34 pm

Hi
I've been using 4 genelec 8020 for my main speakers, with j a SVS PC 2000 for my sub
The quality of the genelecs are great, but their frequency range is to limited. I've tried sending a mixdown of everything to the SVS, instead of just the ped, but I did not like the sound
Really I would like 4 or even 6 8030's or 8040 's, but the cost is just too much
I have been looking at Adam AX 5, have read lots of good things. But they are less than half the price of the genelec's
So is it possible to get the quality of the genelecs with better frequency range and half the cost. Or am I just dreaming!
If you have another make that you think I would like, please let me know
The two sample sets I use most of the time are Haarlem and Hereford.
I wish I could hear different examples with
hauptwerk but I live in Northern Ireland, and there are not so many users over here
Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby dhm » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:56 pm

I usually send a mix of everything to the sub, but adjust the crossover point to where the studio monitors fade out at the bottom end.
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby sonar11 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:04 pm

The Adams are really good! Many use them in recording studios just like Genelec's are used. Whether you like them or not, hard to say. I have the cheaper line, the F5 and F7, and they are kind of nice too. The tweeter is what really shines in both Adam line ups, they are super good for organ music since the 2' and mixture ranks can really sound harsh in most speakers. The Adams give me no listener fatigue.
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby murph » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:10 pm

Hi, I'm in Dublin, if your ever down and want a chat. I have KRK 8's (mkii) as the fronts and 5's (mkiii) for rears, with a Samson sub (20hz!!) and butkicker under the bench. (not quite as good as your speakers, but set-up is probably quite different). What computer/interface are you using? (I've found that makes a bigger difference to the sound)

Tony
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby Mcguckind » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:43 am

Thanks for the help
Tony I have a 6 core i7, and a motu ultralite mk4
I've had lots of different motu over the years
I think they give great value for money, and with the ultralite mk4, I can get the latency down to 1.7 ms.
I would love to see another set up, and have a good discussion with you
Really it's by reading the forum that I learn some brilliant tips, and so many things that I would never have thought about
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby dhm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:01 am

murph wrote:...with a Samson sub (20hz!!)
Tony


Which Samson sub are you using? I'm always on the lookout for subs that can do 20Hz or better.
But the only Samson subs I can find online are the Auro D1200 (45Hz), Auro D1500 (40Hz) and the MediaOne 10S (35Hz). What did I miss?
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby RichardW » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:56 am

Hi,

I have a similar style of system. I have four Neumann KH120A speakers and a BK Electronics XXLS400. If I had opted for a larger speaker I would have considered the Mackie HR824 with no extra sub. The final decision was based on available space as much as anything. I wanted all the speakers to match and there was no room behind me for some 8" speakers.

It did take some time and experimentation to get the "crossover settings" to my liking. If you buy a full range speaker then the manufacturer has set up the crossover for you. When you opt to make your own full range system using different components then you need to set up the crossover settings yourself.

I feed full frequency ranges of all stops into all speakers. Then the filters on the speakers need to be carefully set so that the sub takes over as the small speakers drop off. You need to get the output levels accurately matched as well. I had an initial tendency to set the output level of the sub too high. Now that is sorted it sounds quite good to me.

It may be worth experimenting with the levels and various filter settings. Try playing a few scales over the crossover frequency range and see if the amplitude remains constant throughout with no peaks or dips. Note, your room will interfere with that test so it is not as easy as it could be.


Regards,
Richard
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby organsRgreat » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:39 pm

I have quite a collection of speakers here . . . my Hauptwerk system is integrated with my hi-fi, and that uses a pair of Quad ESL57 electrostatics. These are the clearest speakers I've ever heard – if you want to know more about them there's plenty of information online. I'd love to use all electrostatics, but they're big and not cheap – even second hand.

Next to electrostatics I find anything with a ribbon tweeter gives the clearest sound, and the best ribbon tweeters use the Heil “concertina” design, which moves a larger volume of air. Adam make the most affordable ones – I have a group of eight A3X, with lower notes fed to a REL sub.

For any organ with mixtures you need the best top end you can get – there's far more HF energy in a Diapason chorus up to Mixture than in most orchestral music. It's not just a matter of plenty of HF power – the sound needs to be dispersed widely too. In comparison with the Adams anything with a dome tweeter (used in most speakers) just isn't in the same class. I would imagine that the F series is as good as the A series, since they use similar technology.
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby murph » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:55 pm

Wow! Lots of interest.
Right:

The Samson is the Rubicon 10s. Sealed box. (I thought I had gotten my hands on an 8s to do the rears, but the seller went quiet, Supposedly do 20Hz too). They DO do 20Hz, but not 16Hz. Hence the butkicker for the shaking....
I run the mains into the Samson and then out from its crossed-over outs to the KRK8s. Frequency about 45Hz. (the KRKs try to go down to about 25, but fart through the ports when doing so, hence letting the sub do the cross-overing.)
The rear 5s don't fart as much, so I leave them alone. (They have an auto power function I don't like, and even though the drivers are essentially the same, the amps in the Mkiii sound more "digital" and brittle, to my ears, but aren't too annoying coming from behind.)
Driving is a Z800, 2 x 5675xeons, 96Gb ram, Motu 24i/o on speakers (32 sample latency), Ultraliteiii on headphones. I've now decided that out 23/24 on the 24i/o through the Little Dot ii amp is better for headphones!
I do have ESL57s driven by Quad iis, but prefer not to use them too often on full organ!
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby Dnsmo » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:37 pm

RichardW wrote:Hi,

I have a similar style of system. I have four Neumann KH120A speakers and a BK Electronics XXLS400. If I had opted for a larger speaker I would have considered the Mackie HR824 with no extra sub. The final decision was based on available space as much as anything. I wanted all the speakers to match and there was no room behind me for some 8" speakers.

Richard,

I'm considering the Neumann KH120As for my 10' X 12' practice space; my VPO is only one part of my project studio, so space is at a premium. The Neumann KH120A is my first choice right now because of their lack of coloration, how easy they are on the ears, and the fact that 8" speakers won't work in my space, either.

I plan to have two in front, two in back, with a yet-to-be-determined subwoofer. How do you like this setup so far, and how well do the Neumanns integrate with the BK Electronics sub?

Dennis
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby RichardW » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Dennis,

Speakers are a very subjective area, so please remember these are just my personal opinions.
Dnsmo wrote:... how easy they are on the ears ...

They worked well straight out of the box. There did not seem to be any need to "run them in". I had just upgraded my "soundcard" to an RME UCX and was going to use it with my old amp/speakers and my AKG701s until funds permitted. When I realised how much better the RME sounded than my old E-MU 1212M I decided to dive in and get some speakers. I looked long and hard at the Genelecs and came close to getting some but I seem to recall that, while they were ported like the Neumanns, the port was not at the front which I thought could be an issue with bookshelf positioning. Also, I once saw a review that said they had the "classic Genelec sound" which sounded like a minus, to me.

Now, I can listen to the speakers, then put on the AKGs and, apart from the change in ambient noise, I am hard-pushed to tell the difference.

My previous speakers (Soundcraft Absolute 2) were very hard on the ears when I first got them but they improved over time. The KH120s sounded good straightaway - no harshness at all.
Dnsmo wrote:I plan to have two in front, two in back, with a yet-to-be-determined subwoofer. How do you like this setup so far ...

That is exactly what I have so I am going to say it sounds perfect, aren't I? I wondered about getting more speakers but my room does not justify it. I can blow myself away already. Neumann claim to match the speakers so well that you do not need to buy them in pairs so I decided I could try four and see how it went and still be able to get some more of the "same" speakers later on - but I am happy with just four.
Dnsmo wrote:... how well do the Neumanns integrate with the BK Electronics sub?

I had some trouble getting them match up at first. As many seem to be, I was attracted to the organ at least in part because of the low notes. Consequently, I set the bass level far too high to start with. I realised that only after I had stopped the piano, door knob, radiator and windows vibrating when playing! Another clue was that when playing at the low end of the manuals there was an unnatural booming sound.

However, the Neumanns and the BK XXLS400 all have sufficient filters and level controls to make it work but it does take some time to get it all set up correctly. That will apply to any system with a speakers and subs from different manufacturers, I guess.

The KH120s have sufficient frequency range to cover 8 foot stops and smaller on the manuals and everything bar the fundamental frequency of any 16 foot stops in a part of the bottom octave. They also cover nearly all the pedal harmonics as well. The sub just extracts the last small, but quite important, bit.

I also have come to like something about the KH120s that I thought was a bit of a gimmick at first. I like the lights on the speakers that tell you when they are switched on. My previous, passive, speakers had no need of that, of course.

Whether my set up would actually be any better than a Genelec one is open to question but I am very pleased with it.

Regards,
Richard
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Re: Some speaker advice needed

Postby Dnsmo » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:32 pm

Thanks for your detailed reply, Richard.

I became aware of the Neumann speaker line because a Grammy-winning engineer friend of mine uses the smaller KH 80s (4-inch) as portable monitors when he's doing a recording on-site. Very pleasant to listen to, excellent detail, no coloration top to bottom, and amazing bass for a speaker that size. The KH 120 5.5-inch model I thought would be ideal to use with my VPO, augmented by a sub.

For now, I will probably experiment with a subwoofer I already have, from a Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 computer speaker system, that uses dual 8-inch side-firing woofers. It may not be the best solution, but I already own it and it will give me a reference point.
.
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