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Audio setup

Postby ptbuzzcut » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:55 pm

I have read the paramount suggested audio setup. Easy enough. I have several different Hauptwerk configurations and am trying to further understand what I have read from other users. Some have elaborate setups with many, many speakers and a subwoofer(s). I have read that splitting the bass and sending to a separate speaker is not advised as it affects the sound quality.
If that is the case, then what is the purpose of the subwoofer when everything is going through the 'regular' speakers? I set one configuration up with the lower 3 octaves going to the output that feeds my subwoofer, and it did not sound 'good'.
The reason I am trying to make changes is that there are times that it sounds as if I have pushed one of the 8 speakers and may be blowing the speaker. I am using JBL LSR 308's.
Is there a correct way to send the lower notes/frequencies to the subwoofer? If not, then again, why do people ( myself included) have subwoofers in the speaker array?
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Re: Audio setup

Postby mdyde » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:26 pm

Hello ptbuzzcut,

[Topic moved here.]

The preferred way to use a sub-woofer is usually to feed a mixed signal from all of the pipework to it (via an 'aux mix-down' audio output in Hauptwerk), so that the sub-woofer's built-in cross-over (assuming it has one) ensures that it sounds for all relevant frequencies for all pipes, whilst your main full-range speakers ensure that all other frequencies are heard, even from the bass pipes.

Aux mix-downs/sends are covered on pages 167-168 of the 'Audio routing and multi-channel audio' section of the main Hauptwerk user guide (on the Help menu in Hauptwerk; pages 164-168 in the current v4.2.1 version).

Basically, to configure that you should just need to:

- Delete any existing audio output group and/or audio output entry that you might have created for your sub-woofer.

- Make sure that a pair of audio output channels (or just one, if the sub-woofer's input is mono) on your audio interface are connected to the input(s) on your sub-woofer's amplifier.

- Insert a new entry on the 'General settings | Audio outputs' screen with:
Alias (name) = 'Sub-woofer mix' (or something similarly meaningful),
Channel format = Stereo (or mono, if applicable),
Device channels = <the pair of analogue outputs on your audio interface that you connected to your sub-woofer>,
On the 'Routing and aux mix' screen tab: Output type = 'Aux mix-down output'.

- Now go to each of your other entries on the screen in turn (the ones for the speaker pairs for each of your organ divisions), and on the 'Routing and aux mix' screen tab, select your new 'Sub-woofer mix' entry for their 'Aux send 1 destination'.

- Once that's done, OK the screen, and all of your divisions should sound through your sub-woofer, as well as sounding simultaneously through your existing per-division full-range speakers.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Audio setup

Postby 1961TC4ME » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:32 pm

I see Martin and I responded at the same time and is recommending the same....

I don't know how many audio channels you have to work with but the reason for the sub is exactly as you mention, to not push certain smaller speakers into the task of producing the lower notes, and instead allowing the sub to efficiently work with those low notes. Early on I tried numerous configurations including some as you outline. I've found as others have, assuming you have the audio channels available, is to simply send a left / right mix-down of all signals (so all pipes, all ranks / channels) to the sub which works best. Your sub will basically deal with or in a way 'ignore' the higher pitched notes because of the crossover on your sub, and at the same time will deal nicely with the lower notes as intended.

Marc
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Re: Audio setup

Postby ptbuzzcut » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:51 pm

I have a Delta 1010 so there are 8 analog outputs to the 8JBL speakers and I use the spdif (channels 9/10) to a converter to the powered subwoofer. I had setup the 8 as primary output and the 9/10 as aux mix down output. The 8 were also sent to the aux send destination to mix down. I still did not hear that the 'bass' notes were not going to the 8 primary speakers. The sub was definitely getting a signal so I didn't think I had it configured incorrectly.
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Re: Audio setup

Postby 1961TC4ME » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:07 pm

I also have a 1010 LT. Yes, when you're using channels 1 through 8 as primary for rank routing (including pedal), and sending 9 - 10 mixdown of all to the sub, there's no way to avoid hearing the pedal notes through your smaller speakers as well. If you feel the pedal notes, especially the 16' and lower are too much for your smaller speakers to handle, the solution would be to set up 9 - 10 as another audio group and send certain pedal ranks such as 16' and lower to 9 - 10. You can also send any 16' ranks on any manuals to the sub as well If needed, then you will not have any offending lower notes sounding (pedal or otherwise) sounding through your smaller speakers. This is exactly why I incorporate one pair of larger speakers dedicated to pedal and 16' and lower notes and tie the sub to the same 9 - 10 channels.

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Re: Audio setup

Postby mdyde » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:57 am

ptbuzzcut wrote: I still did not hear that the 'bass' notes were not going to the 8 primary speakers.


Hello ptbuzzcut,

Could you confirm: do you mean that you *do* hear the (upper frequencies of the) any given bass pipe through your main speakers (as well as the sub-woofer simultaneously), or not?

If configured correctly, and if you play the bottom few notes on just the Trombone 16' rank on St. Anne's (for example, since it has both high and low frequencies), you should hear the pipes sounding from the sub-woofer and your main speakers simultaneously.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Audio setup

Postby ptbuzzcut » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:14 am

When I say I hear the subwoofer, I mean that all channels are sending to it.
As for assigning ranks, I do not see how that is possible when using Paramount VTPO.
I am using Paramount 341. The only option I have found is to 'load organ adjusting ranks' and from there, assign octaves to speaker groups. That was tried and the sound was not good. The lower end dropped off the speakers 1-8 and they sounded way off.
In setting up St Annes, I see how it was done in the Hauptwerk manual, but in that case, there is the ability to assign pedals ranks to the subwoofer ( or alt least, that is how it appears to me). I am not using St Annes-

I do not see how a mix down separates lower frequencies and redirect to the subwoofer
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Re: Audio setup

Postby mdyde » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:49 am

Hello ptbuzzcut,

Thanks for the update.

With the sub-woofer set up as an aux mix-down, could you still confirm the answer to this part of my previous question?:

mdyde wrote:do you mean that you *do* hear the (upper frequencies of the) any given bass pipe through your main speakers ( ... ), or not?


(If you don't, then it isn't configured correctly.)

ptbuzzcut wrote:I do not see how a mix down separates lower frequencies and redirect to the subwoofer


Most powered sub-woofers have a built-in cross-over, so that even though they receive the full-range signal they just ignore (filter out) the higher frequencies.

(When using multi-channel audio with the sub-woofer set up as an aux mix-down) your full-range speakers would usually also receive the full frequency range, so they would also attempt to play the bass frequencies, at least to the extent that their design allowed. However, if the amplifiers for your full-range speakers have cross-overs (or EQs) then you could potentially adjust them to attenuate their bass responses.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Audio setup

Postby anco111 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:44 am

When using a subwoofer, I would choose to follow Martin's procedure to make it work, a mixdown from all the pipework rather than just sending all 16 ft and lower to the sub only.
Because, if only the subwoofer receives the signals of the 16 ft, what happens to the overtones/harmonics of these?
That's why Martin's procedure is better. The XO on the subwoofer (most sub's have one) can be set so that it cuts off at -for example- 50hz, the frequency where your main speakers start to play.
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Re: Audio setup

Postby ptbuzzcut » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:57 am

" mdyde wrote:
do you mean that you *do* hear the (upper frequencies of the) any given bass pipe through your main speakers ( ... ), or not?" ----- I hear all frequencies through all speakers. Less high ( as expected) from the subwoofer.

by anco111
"When using a subwoofer, I would choose to follow Martin's procedure to make it work, a mixdown from all the pipework rather than just sending all 16 ft and lower to the sub only. " ---- With Paramount, I do not see the ability to send all 16ft and lower ( or any footage to a speaker set), unlike St Annes-which I do not use.
The JBLs -1-8 have 2 slide buttons on the back - High Frequency and Low Frequency Trim controls. Trimming the bass is minimal from using that - still getting bass which is what the whole issue I am having is.
From what I am reading, I cannot eliminate bass going to them, so there is no customizing that I can perform to 'correct' this.
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Re: Audio setup

Postby mdyde » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:17 am

Hello ptbuzzcut,

ptbuzzcut wrote: I hear all frequencies through all speakers. Less high ( as expected) from the subwoofer.


Thanks. In that case, your aux mix-down is working as expected.

ptbuzzcut wrote:The JBLs -1-8 have 2 slide buttons on the back - High Frequency and Low Frequency Trim controls. Trimming the bass is minimal from using that - still getting bass which is what the whole issue I am having is.


Probably the easiest (aside from using intermediate hardware/software) would be just to turn down their low frequency trim controls so that they produce as little bass as it allows.

ptbuzzcut wrote:With Paramount, I do not see the ability to send all 16ft and lower ( or any footage to a speaker set), unlike St Annes-which I do not use.


Since theatre organs are 'unified' (stops of multiple pitches play the same ranks of pipes), there won't be separate ranks for 16' stops. You could potentially still split the bass portions of the ranks (e.g. the bottom one or two octaves) to a separate audio output group (via the 'Bass split' tab on the 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio/memory options/routing' screen), but as anco111 mentions you would then no longer hear their upper harmonics unless you also added an additional set of full-range speakers fed from the pass-through (if it has one) of your sub-woofer's cross-over.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Audio setup

Postby anco111 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:26 am

If there is a bass cut-off button on your main speakers, I'm guessing there is written somewhere in the manual on what frequency the bass is cut off.
Then you can set your sub according to that frequency.

Why would you want to eliminate all bass going to your main speakers?
I think your main speakers should at least handle some of the bass. Your sub is only there for the very low frequencies. The upper bass still needs to go to the main speakers since a subwoofer is way to big to handle upper-bass correctly.

Also, even if there would be almost no bass coming from your main speakers, because of harmonics, your brain can trick you into thinking there is decent bass.

Edit: Martin must have posted the second I started writing.. ;)
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Re: Audio setup

Postby ptbuzzcut » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:54 am

Thank you all for the input. I was fairly sure there was little I could do to alter the routing of bass, but thought there might be something I was missing.
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Re: Audio setup

Postby mdyde » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:02 am

Thanks. You're very welcome.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Audio setup

Postby 1961TC4ME » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:52 pm

If I can throw in just a tidbit more here.... I looked over the specs of the JBL LSR 308's, they incorporate an 8" driver and their lower frequency response is quite respectable, reaching down to 37hz, similar to my larger speakers. Given that, I would assume there should not be too much of an issue with them handling the lower notes and also producing the results of too much bass as described. Something else is at issue here. Being I have a 1010LT I do know there are a few settings that can make things too boomy. One is to be sure all your output settings under the output tab (of the 1010LT control panel) in the small drop down windows below each pair of channels output source are set to 'sw return' and not set to 'mixer.' If you have 9-10 as an example set to 'mixer' and the mixer slider (under the mixer tab) is set too high, this will result in much too strong of a signal to your 9-10 pair. I only control audio output of the 1010LT on the output screen, I adjust the sliders so they centered around 5, and again set every channels output source to 'sw return.'

If that doesn't tame things down some then I'd start to wonder if this isn't more of a voicing issue? I do have a few sets where certain lower pedal notes are very boomy and have excessive bass if it is not adjusted out using the voicing controls accordingly, whereas a different set I load using the exact same amp and 1010LT settings produces no boom at all. Some sets just seem to produce this more than others. For me St. Max is the culprit and more difficult to tame whereas the Schulze is right out of the box, no tinkering with anything, and is as smooth as glass on the low notes. As far as your JBL LSR 308's go, because of their good frequency response, you should be able to easily send a mix-down of all to them along with the sub tied to them without issues.

If using the controls on your JBL's doesn't have enough effect to tame things, look at your 1010LT setting as I describe first, then I'd say try some voicing on the offending lower notes next, lower their amplitude and see if that helps.

Marc
Last edited by 1961TC4ME on Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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