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"Hauptwerk Algorithms"

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"Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby kiaya611 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:06 am

Hello,

I have been working on the design of the audio system, particular the speaker number, channels and placement. I am aware of the issue of putting certain notes through the same speaker causing distortion and creating the need to use more speakers for ranks of pipes to eliminate this issue.

I will be using multiple sample sets and their will be 2 consoles, one 5MP classical/orchestral and one 4MP theatre. For the purpose of trying to ascertain the proper speaker/channel arrangement, I will use the largest sample set that I know I will use. For the classical organ, I will be using the CLR FCCLA Sample Set and the largest sample set for the theatre organ that I know of right now is the Paramount 450. In doing research on this, I was made aware of the "Hauptwerk Algorithms".

I have not been able to find information on them and was hoping that someone here would know about them and could direct me to them so I could see what they entailed. The room is relatively small, being approximately 20' X 30'. The audio system will be shared by each organ as they will not be played together. I know that here will be some speakers that are specifically for one organ and not the other. My original thought was to have approximately 16 channels, but in learning about the distortion issues by combining certain notes together, this could increase dramatically to alleviate this issue.

I will be planning on multiple types and sizes of speakers to cover the range of frequencies that will be played from 32' stops at 16 Hz to 1' stops that will be in the 16KHz range. I will also be using specialty drivers and horns for large reeds and specialized speakers to better reproduce strings. I will be using convolution reverb, potentially with multiple delays to more effectively simulate a large stone church of approximately 1.5 - 2 seconds. Any more can get very muddy in the low ranges and also much less clear in the higher ranges.

I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has built a large multiple channel setup, especially if done in a small room. I will be using wet samples (as best as I can tell, so a lot of the natural room reverb will already be in the recordings, but depending on how successful that is, I might try dry samples and adding my own reverb to it and experimenting on how that works with different configurations.

I would appreciate any help that you can provide.

Thank you and best wishes, Steven
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby organtechnology » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:08 am

An advanced search on the word 'algorithms' finds many forum topics related to the Hauptwerk algorithms. I recommend you start there. I would pay careful attention to the postings by Martin Dyde on the subject.
These should get you going and perhaps up to speed.

Best regards,

Thomas
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby kiaya611 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:45 am

Thomas,

Thank you very much. I appreciate your help.

Best wishes,

Steven
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby IainStinson » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:48 pm

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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby magnaton » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:41 am

kiaya611 wrote:In doing research on this, I was made aware of the "Hauptwerk Algorithms".
I have not been able to find information on them and was hoping that someone here would know about them and could direct me to them so I could see what they entailed.

I have an Excel sheet that diagrams visually how each of these 5 algorithms work so you can compare the differences. It was created by a past HW Forum member. It has worksheet tabs at the bottom to show note and rank disbursement based on the number of channels. If you send me a PM with your email address I'd be happy to send it to you. One algorithm, given more than 3 pairs (six channels), works well on keeping minor 3rds of the same rank out of a single speaker. Another one is the most efficient in evenly distributing notes and ranks. Here each channel is pulling equal audio duty.

If you invoke any of these algorithms (notes and ranks divvied amongst x number of speakers) the speakers in the defined array have to be identical.

kiaya611 wrote:I will be planning on multiple types and sizes of speakers to cover the range of frequencies that will be played from 32' stops at 16 Hz to 1' stops that will be in the 16KHz range. I will also be using specialty drivers and horns for large reeds and specialized speakers to better reproduce strings. I will be using convolution reverb, potentially with multiple delays to more effectively simulate a large stone church of approximately 1.5 - 2 seconds. Any more can get very muddy in the low ranges and also much less clear in the higher ranges.

Keep in mind that individual Hauptwerk samples are recordings or multiple recordings, usually in higher than CD quality, of individual pipes and stops. Unlike the past digital & late analog organs where the speaker design worked to aide in the sound of certain stops, with Hauptwerk we take cues from the studio/recording industry making use of very flat studio monitors (generally active but passive designs work too) and or studio grade headphones. Of course with any proper audio design, you'll need a subwoofer or two for the lower frequencies.

Another design that works well are large tower speakers that appeal to audiophile inclined consumers. Def Tech Bipolars, Golden Ear Triton IIs, or a few others of similar design. Like with studio monitors the objective is to get an accurate 'play back' of the recorded source.

You've seem to have done your homework and know how things work. Building your own speakers for a project like this can be rewarding and your plan could work. You can claim to have "built" your VPO vs "assembled" it. :D

kiaya611 wrote:I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has built a large multiple channel setup, especially if done in a small room. I will be using wet samples (as best as I can tell, so a lot of the natural room reverb will already be in the recordings, but depending on how successful that is, I might try dry samples and adding my own reverb to it and experimenting on how that works with different configurations.

My space is 27 X 16 and I'm running 12 channels and will be adding 8 more when time permits. I have 2 sets of speakers in parallel 'surround sound' configuration. One surround set is about 10 feet away from the console the other is about 21 feet away. This gives the entire room an artificial reverberant feel. This works wonderfully as I send the reflection or surround ranks (as found in "surround" sample sets) to them. I also shorten the reverb tail on the main or Chancel recorded ranks quite a bit. This way you aren't swimming in reverb! The main speakers (channels) taper off much quicker than the surround speakers so it sounds more natural. Its a great thrill the first time you let off a chord on a heavy registration and have the sound move from front to back.

As you know, theatre organ sample sets are dry. So to add a little 'pizza fication', I route some traps and sound effects to these surround channels that are otherwise dormant. It really adds realism to suddenly hear a wood block or train whistle from a different location than the main speakers 8)

Danny B.
Last edited by magnaton on Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:18 pm

This really is an amplification question / topic more than anything. If you're using various sized speakers for best results in a small (in my case 12' x 11' space) but really to me applies to all spaces regardless of size, I'll refer you to this for some interesting reading for starters.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14769

Marc
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:05 pm

magnaton wrote:My space is 27 X 16 and I'm running 12 channels and will be adding 8 more when time permits. I have 2 sets of speakers in parallel 'surround sound' configuration. One surround set is about 10 feet away from the console the other is about 21 feet away. This gives the entire room an artificial reverberant feel. This works wonderfully as I send the reflection or surround ranks (as found in "surround" sample sets) to them. I also shorten the reverb tail on the main or Chancel recorded ranks quite a bit. This way you aren't swimming in reverb! The main speakers (channels) taper off much quicker than the surround speakers so it sounds more natural. Its a great thrill the first time you let off a chord on a heavy registration and have the sound move from front to back.
Danny B.


Hey Danny,

When you say "an artificial reverberant feel" that doesn't sound so good. Reminds me of the old reverbs that sounded so artificial. But I think I understand what you mean to say.

So you are just paralleling your surround speakers so they have the same reverb tail? I also have a room similar to yours, 30 x 13 with a very high ceiling. My speakers are at opposite ends of the long room dimension, but my console is back a bit from the mains so puts the surrounds about 17 feet behind the console. I really think my mains are too far front of me, but as I have them up quite high, I need the distance. I'm thinking about lowering them and moving the console forward. Your in between surrounds might not be a bad idea. Especially with the 6 channels sets, which I don't have any of at this point.

I know some of the stops I have seem to have a longer reverb tail that fades to the rear, and I do like that effect. I've never tried truncation, but may give it a shot on the mains.

Eric
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby magnaton » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:09 am

Eric Sagmuller wrote: Hey Danny,

When you say "an artificial reverberant feel" that doesn't sound so good. Reminds me of the old reverbs that sounded so artificial. But I think I understand what you mean to say.

So you are just paralleling your surround speakers so they have the same reverb tail?


Yes. What I meant by "an artificial reverberant feel" was that playing a surround sound HW sample provides an electronic enhanced acoustical treatment to the room. My space has very dry with just a 9ft ceiling.

When starting off, my original surround sound speakers were 10ft away, up high, and angled about 40 degrees towards the console. My speaker arrays are flanked on a wall in front, split on either side of the console which sits about 3 feet out. Organist has the best seat in the house (imagine that 8) ). The seating I have in this space is past these surround sound speakers, so some friends and colleagues one evening wired up some spare bookshelf speakers to the surround sound amp and placed near the opposite wall of the console thus expanding the surround effect. The result and reasoning was to fill the space with sound. It actually worked! I ended up purchasing a 2nd set of passive monitors identical to the original surround sound ones as the cheap book shelf speakers can't handle the HW organ tone. So now no matter where you sit or stand in this space you get the full experience as the organist. I have the volume adjusted so the front speakers and active monitor array are the main sound source. The surround sound speakers add the ambience and most folks don't know they are speaking until you release the notes (as the reverb tails are full length) or actually focus you attention to them.

A electronic solution to resolve poor or 'unfriendly music' acoustics isn't new. Roswell UMC in Roswell, GA incorporated a LARES Associates (Leixicon) acoustic enhancement system for their choir. This space is also used for performance and rehearsals of the Micheal O'Neal Singers in Atlanta. This is an elaborate system that places a small monitor incorporated into the floor for every 2 singers. They have a decorative brass grill that resembles a fancy air duct so you can step on them with out issue. More speakers are placed throughout the auditorium that act as (reverb) surround sound as they are post Lexicon sound processed. The result is amazing! The choir voices now can blend more easily and you get the benefit of a reverberant hall. Before it was quite dead. This system was expensive to implement but a lot cheaper than having to remove all the carpet and seat cushions prior to a performance. LOL

BTW, as a bonus, this LARES system enhanced to organ too which occupies the same space as the choir. The hanging (near invisible) mics used for the choir also pick up the organ. Their 5/94 Möller organ gained about 1.5 seconds of reverb which was a 1.5 second improvement. :wink:

Danny B.

Sorry for a long answer to a short question.
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby B. Milan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:23 pm

[Topic moved]
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Re: "Hauptwerk Algorithms"

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:37 pm

Yes I remember reading about the LARES a number of years ago. I believe however that they vary the reverb delay and or length for each set of speakers. That's why I wondered if you feed yours with the same signal. I suppose in a small room that may work fine. Some day when I feel ambitious, I'll do some experimenting along those lines.

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