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Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salisbury

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby 1961TC4ME » Sat May 12, 2018 10:47 pm

jkinkennon wrote:I generally avoid these discussions.....


Amen. I just hope the person originally asking the questions here is able to glean at least something useful, or if perhaps is now more confused than ever and wishes he didn't ask in the first place. :roll: Let's hope it's not the latter.

I think I'll go play now. :wink:

Marc
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby jkinkennon » Sun May 13, 2018 12:16 pm

To further amuse and confuse, it's instructive to watch a piano tuner doing a totally aural tuning instead of relying on the more accurate computer aides. You will see the slight turn of the head or the movement to one side or the other. They often are not even aware that they do this, but they are listening for the speed of the beats of harmonics of the pitches in question which may be as high as a 4th or 5th partial of the fundamental frequency. In this case the piano tuner needs to defeat the brains usual ability to compare what the two ears are hearing and provide a beatless experience.
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby RichardW » Sun May 13, 2018 12:54 pm

josq wrote:Sorry, I can't resist to respond ;)

Me too!

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that theories about interference and beats were nonsense just that in a real environment the results will be too complex to define. So, people can discuss them as much as they like but you can't beat (see what I did there?) an experiment. Can I hear a difference when I turn my head? The answer is: Yes.

I think I can just about remember c=fλ, thanks for the reminder.

The question then would be, how often do you ever get a sound from an organ that does not have wavelengths of a few inches as one of the harmonics? People can generally tell where a sound is coming from which is a related phenomenon.

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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby engrssc » Mon May 14, 2018 3:55 am

jkinkennon wrote:To further amuse and confuse, it's instructive to watch a piano tuner doing a totally aural tuning instead of relying on the more accurate computer aides. You will see the slight turn of the head or the movement to one side or the other. They often are not even aware that they do this, but they are listening for the speed of the beats of harmonics of the pitches in question which may be as high as a 4th or 5th partial of the fundamental frequency. In this case the piano tuner needs to defeat the brains usual ability to compare what the two ears are hearing and provide a beatless experience.


I recently experienced a well tuned acoustic real piano being played in a duet with an excellent electronic (piano) keyboard. Nothing was wrong per se but it wasn't right either.

Rgds,
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby EricMcK » Wed May 16, 2018 1:47 pm

1961TC4ME wrote: I just hope the person originally asking the questions here is able to glean at least something useful, or if perhaps is now more confused than ever and wishes he didn't ask in the first place.


It is the former! I'm very intrigued by all of the discussion that took place, even though some of it did go into the weeds, but that too was excellent food for thought.

I thought I'd take a moment to report back what we wound up doing last night.

The setup now consists of a pair of monitors above and to the right of the console, and another pair above and to the left. A third pair of monitors is across the room, and a subwoofer is on the floor to the left of the console.

1. I originally intended for the inboard two speakers in the front to be a pair for the Great and upper pedal division, and then send the lower pedal voices to the subwoofer on a separate channel. This didn't work out very well -- at least, I couldn't get it to -- so the left inboard monitor is daisy-chained to the subwoofer, which goes in channel 1 and is called "Left Main/Sub". The right inboard monitor is on channel 2, called "Right Main."

2. The left outboard monitor is channel 3, and is called "Left Outboard." All of the Choir goes here, with a few exceptions I'll note below. One such exception is the Gamba Celeste, which is routed to Left Main/Sub.

3. The right outboard monitor is channel 4, and is called "Right Outboard." All of the Swell goes here, with the exception of the string and flute celestes, which are in Right Main.

4. The two rear monitors are labeled Rear Top and Rear Bottom (they're stacked). From the choir, I've routed the Clarinet, French Horn and Orchestral Oboe to the top monitor, and the Tuba Mirabilis as well as the Trompette Festiva from the Great are routed to the Rear Bottom.

Early results are very, very good. Tutti can now be played without any distortion, and fairly loud! It could be much louder than needed without crackling. The entire organ now feels like the sound is hugging you as you play, and it's just marvelous.

Last night we ordered the Hereford Cathedral XL sample set, and will go through the requisite hoops this week to update the HW Advanced dongle and then install the organ. The routing will be very similar, except the entire Solo division on that organ will be routed to the rear speakers.

Thanks to each of you once again for your invaluable help!!
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby jkinkennon » Wed May 16, 2018 5:57 pm

I'd missed how close you are to Vancouver. If you haven't already, get in touch with the organist at St. Barnabas Episcopal in McMinnville and compare notes. That's an install I helped with and am very happy with the results. They use 12 main speakers in the rear balcony along with a Tuba HT sub. It sounds like you are getting excellent results. Hope to hear the installation sometime.
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby EricMcK » Wed May 16, 2018 5:59 pm

jkinkennon wrote:I'd missed how close you are to Vancouver. Hope to hear the installation sometime.


It's in a private residence (not mine) - and if you're ever passing through, let me know! I'd be glad to set up a visit.
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby EricMcK » Wed May 16, 2018 6:02 pm

I should probably make this its own thread, but since we have several very smart people in this conversation, I thought I'd start here --

Now that all the speakers are connected, there's a tiny bit of interference coming through the speakers. Barely detectable, but definitely there. It only happens when HW is running. Occasionally touching a drawknob (on screen) will stop it, and then the next action will bring it back.

I ran into something like when putting the console/audio together two years ago. At that point we were doing analog audio from the audio card on the PC, and a ground loop interruptor from Radio Shack solved the problem. The interference noise was more prominent at that point.

Short of buying seven ground loop interruptors for each line out of the Roland box, is there a better way to isolate and solve?

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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby organassist » Thu May 17, 2018 3:36 am

This may be totally unrelated but I did have background noise on one of my systems. After a lot of investigation I found it was interference coming through the ground on a USB connector. I purchased a USB isolator and it fixed the problem. I mention this because you indicate that it may be related to the touch screen monitor which I assume is connected via USB.
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby EricMcK » Thu May 17, 2018 10:39 am

Very interesting! Yes, there are two touch-screen monitors, each connected via USB for the touch part. I'll look into one of those USB isolators.
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby mnailor » Thu May 17, 2018 1:38 pm

Are you using balanced cables and everything on one AC circuit?
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Re: Advice request: multi-channel audio for Hereford & Salis

Postby EricMcK » Thu May 17, 2018 2:02 pm

mnailor wrote:Are you using balanced cables and everything on one AC circuit?


I believe everything is on one circuit - might be two different circuits for the rear speakers. I'll find out this weekend.

All the cables are balanced.
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