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Roomcorrection software

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Roomcorrection software

Postby Jan Loosman » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:04 am

As a reader and contributor of this forum and the Dutch forum, It often puzzles me why there is so little attention for Roomcorrection software on this forum.
On the Dutch forum there are lots of users of Arc2 , Dirac and recently there is a popular topic about Sonar works roomcorrection. Roomcorrection topics are hot on the Dutch forum. Lots of users report about the improvements roomcorrection gives.

As a user of Dirac (years ago Arc2) i experienced the large improvement correction software can give.
Dirac improves roomnodes, timing and corrects impuls responses, giving a vast improvement of the sound, thus improving every sampleset i own.
With roomcorrection every sample set sounds good right out off the box!

Nowadays Johannus also uses room correction for their newer series.

A dutch console builder sells complete Hauptwerk consoles with Dirac because he states on his website that he believes that if people want to have the best sound for their setup, that roomcorrection is mandatory.
I agree!!

Most of the rooms where the consoles are situated are living rooms, so bass traps etc. are no option, but software correction is a very good alternative.

It strikes me that on this forum lots of users seek to improve their setup by using better speakers or by adding more and more speakers. I often see members having big sound walls in their setup.
This can be a good option to improve the sound but considering the costs, roomcorrection might be a more cost effective option, improving speakers a lot and so skipping the need to upgrade.

For roomcorrection you have to use a Daw like Reaper, lots of Hauptwerk users already use a daw.
Sonar works has a trial offer to try the software for one month.
Dirac also has a trial offer but it is a bit more complicated to install and use.

Regards Jan
Last edited by Jan Loosman on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby abaymajr » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:17 am

Agreed. Samplesets reproduced at an acoustically untreated room will sound almost like an unvoiced organ. Dirac Live upgrades audio output to a whole new level of quality/fidelity, being it used at my home studio or at a mid-sized church. I wish I could use a real calibrated microphone for this purpose, not only my presumably flat Behringer ECM8000 condenser.

By the way, do you have any news about v2.0 release? I intend to add a subwoofer to extend the frequency spectrum of a Viscount console, but would like to perform the needed calibration already with the highly anticipated Dirac Live 2.
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby Jan Loosman » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:34 am

abaymajr wrote:Agreed. Dirac Live upgrades audio output to a whole new level of quality/fidelity, being it used at my home studio or at a mid-sized church. I wish I could use a real calibrated microphone for this purpose, not only my presumably flat Behringer ECM8000 condenser.


I use the Sonar works mic. very reasonably priced and it comes with a calibration file. Works very well with Dirac. Gives better results then the mini dsp usb mic. i used before.
Usb mics. are better not used because of syncing problems with the internal clock.

I don't know when version 2 is comming, i hope soon.

Regards Jan
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby Lauwerk » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:42 am

An enthusiastic "second":

Beginning in February, 2015, I reported in the Forum my own delight with Dirac Live correction. I first incorporated "room correction" software in my HW setup as a result of Jan Loosman's writings in the Forum; I should repeat that support here.

I unhesitatingly state that incorporating Dirac Live is the most important investment I have made into the amplified sound reproduction of my HW organ. This remains true even after the purchase of a pair of 15" Rythmik subwoofers (also highly recommended), as well as my own $$$ rebuild last year of my oldest pairs of speakers using top-end Morel drivers and minimal homemade crossovers with foil coils and high quality capacitors.

I have always found that the correction of frequency response (or, what the Dirac people refer to as "magnitude response") is the LEAST important correction that the Dirac Live software achieves. The Dirac Live correction of phasing/timing, with the associated honing of impulse response, restores an amazing degree of spatial sonic realism. After all, it is human sensitivity to phase relationships that allows us to mentally "place" a sound above or behind us using a pair of fixed ears. I will not be performing tests or comparisons, but I do not expect the simple multiplication of speaker elements to approach the same level of realism.

Functional example:
On the basis of my experience with Dirac Live as a part of my HW organ, I recently (and finally!) made the same conversion in my music listening room: I purchased a stereo integrated amplifier that incorporates Dirac Live. Because of room and equipment peculiarities, the subwoofers are placed about a foot in front of the ends of the central equipment cabinet, with the main floor-standing speakers a bit behind and "outside" of them. After I made the necessary measurements for entering the Dirac Live filters into the amplifier, I was amused and gratified to see that the Dirac setup program had "sensed" that the feed to the subwoofers must be delayed by 8 milliseconds – precisely the amount that one would calculate for their position. More than ever before, it is difficult to tell where the music comes from (i.e., speakers) even when I move about the room: the music is simply "in" the room. Two unexpected, striking evidences of phase and impulse success: solo singing voices are more pleasing to listen to, and choral diction has "improved" phenomenally.

For my HW setup, I use a MiniDSP UMIK-1 that I purchased with its own thorough, custom calibration data from Cross-Spectrum Acoustics LLC. After a bit of reformatting, the calibration data (much more detailed than a standard curve) was directly loadable into Dirac. I have no knowledge about USB microphone "syncing problems with the internal clock."

In short, I wholeheartedly agree with Jan Loosman that the incorporation of Dirac Live has resulted in a "vast improvement of the sound thus improving every sampleset i have." As I wrote before, Dirac Live correction improves the sound of relatively inexpensive or "old" sample sets to more closely approximate the sound of better ones, which are themselves wonderfully improved.

Best acoustic wishes,
Don Vlazny
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby Jan Loosman » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:38 am

On the Dutch forum Jan Wim showed us an excellent video which explains roomcorrection.
Replace the woman for a organ pipe!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=peQq6BX6jio&t=8s

I think this explains it even better then words, about the bennefits of Roomcorrection.

Regards Jan

Btw i am not promoting this brand it is rather expensive compared to Dirac.
I don't know about the latency, but i can state that with Dirac latency is no issue.
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby organtechnology » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:58 pm

Hi Jan,

How large a room and how many listeners can enjoy the 'room correction'? From the literature it appears that this software is for only one listener with either stereo or 7.1 Dolby. Is that correct? But since Hauptwerk's algorithm switches pipes to stereo pairs can the stereo Dirac-live be used?

Thanks for the information.

Thomas
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby Lauwerk » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:39 am

Hi Thomas -

Jan is MORE than welcome to provide an answer to your question, but since my situation may represent one "extreme," I will also offer my results.

My Hauptwerk setup currently occupies one end of a room that is 40 feet long, 23 feet wide, up to 20 feet high at the peaks, and has numerous unclosed extensions. For my first experiments at applying Dirac Live, I took measurements using the Dirac "auditorium" mode, which employs a single mid-room microphone placement. This was not very successful. I then used the Dirac multipoint "sofa" microphone placement pattern about two thirds of the room away from the organ. This was also not very successful. I then "exploded" the multipoint pattern (that is, I made it bigger than a standard sofa), but I kept it relatively close to the loudspeakers — in fact, the central "front" couch position was assigned to the console bench itself, which is located about 7 feet away from the wall where the non-moving speakers stand. (I position one pair of floor-standing speakers either near the others or alternately behind the organ bench to resemble Rückpositivs; for Dirac measurements, they are in their positions near the other speakers at the wall.) I found this measurement layout to be successful and have used it repeatedly following each amplifier or loudspeaker upgrade.

I should describe here that I use three stereo pairs of loudspeaker channels, all of which are evaluated by Dirac Live in a single set of measurements. The two subwoofers, one for each of the "main" pair of channels, are linked in through an external dbx stereo crossover and therefore are evaluated by Dirac as a part of that stereo pair. Dirac correctly recognizes the differences in frequency range for these main channels (which I use for all pitches, 64' and up) versus the floor-standing DefTecs (16' and up) and the homemade wall-mounted units (8' and up). It automatically recognizes the smaller channels as pairs, though I typically need to "teach" it that the main two channels are a stereo pair. In any case, Dirac handles the magnitude and timing/phasing responses for each of the six channels separately, as is evidenced by the measurement results.

I believe that moving the microphone measurement positions into the "front" portion of the room helped clarify the compensations that needed to be made, particularly with respect to timing. In any event – and to directly answer your question – I find that once the timed/phased/magnitude-balanced sounds enter the room from the speakers themselves, they basically remain so regardless of listening position. I have not yet had a lot of opportunity to listen to someone else play the instrument, but my observation is that the Dirac Live correction significantly reduces (~eliminates?) a sense of "sweet spot" for listening. This is consistent with what I have recently experienced by incorporating Dirac Live into my stereo listening in another room.

I should mention that in infrequent instances, I still do need to make amplitude adjustments inside HW to balance out some lower tones, particularly among "round" bourdon-like (limited harmonics) stops. This is very much sample-set-dependent and is also not characteristically related to certain pitches. Perhaps I have not found the "perfect" measurement protocol for my room and equipment, at least with respect to potential resonances. Perhaps there is none. But I have always maintained that the major Dirac Live enhancement of realism derives from the correction of timing/phasing/impulse-response. This seems to benefit the entire room.

In case you have wondered, it only takes a single mouse click to turn Dirac Live correction "off" for listening with headphones.

I might also mention that using Dirac Live does appear to reduce my HW polyphony, but it is eminently worth the CPU "expense." Besides, since I neither like nor use "rear" channels, I find no difficulty living with a measured static polyphony of 4032.

I hope this helps.

Don

P.S. Jan - thanks for the YouTube link. Nice demo, though I agree that for 6 channels, that would be pricey!
Last edited by Lauwerk on Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby organtechnology » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:26 pm

Lauwerk wrote:Hi Thomas -

Jan is MORE than welcome to provide an answer to your question, but since my situation may represent one "extreme," I will also offer my results.

My Hauptwerk setup currently occupies one end of a room that is 40 feet long, 23 feet wide, up to 20 feet high at the peaks, and has numerous unclosed extensions. For my first experiments at applying Dirac Live, I took measurements using the Dirac "auditorium" mode, which employs a single mid-room microphone placement. This was not very successful.

Does 'not very successful' mean the Dirac software could not make the room corrections? Since I am thinking smallish church, could the "auditorium" mode be more successful?

I then used the Dirac multipoint "sofa" microphone placement pattern about two thirds of the room away from the organ. This was also not very successful. I then "exploded" the multipoint pattern (that is, I made it bigger than a standard sofa), but I kept it relatively close to the loudspeakers — in fact, the central "front" couch position was assigned to the console bench itself, which is located about 7 feet away from the wall where the non-moving speakers stand. (I position one pair of floor-standing speakers either near the others or alternately behind the organ bench to resemble Rückpositivs; for Dirac measurements, they are in their positions near the other speakers at the wall.) I found this measurement layout to be successful and have used it repeatedly following each amplifier or loudspeaker upgrade.

I should describe here that I use three stereo pairs of loudspeaker channels, all of which are evaluated by Dirac Live in a single set of measurements. The two subwoofers, one for each of the "main" pair of channels, are linked in through an external dbx stereo crossover and therefore are evaluated by Dirac as a part of that stereo pair. Dirac correctly recognizes the differences in frequency range for these main channels (which I use for all pitches, 64' and up) versus the floor-standing DefTecs (16' and up) and the homemade wall-mounted units (8' and up). It automatically recognizes the smaller channels as pairs, though I typically need to "teach" it that the main two channels are a stereo pair. In any case, Dirac handles the magnitude and timing/phasing responses for each of the six channels separately, as is evidenced by the measurement results.

I believe that moving the microphone measurement positions into the "front" portion of the room helped clarify the compensations that needed to be made, particularly with respect to timing. In any event – and to directly answer your question – I find that once the timed/phased/magnitude-balanced sounds enter the room from the speakers themselves, they basically remain so regardless of listening position. I have not yet had a lot of opportunity to listen to someone else play the instrument, but my observation is that the Dirac Live correction significantly reduces (~eliminates?) a sense of "sweet spot" for listening. This is consistent with what I have recently experienced by incorporating Dirac Live into my stereo listening in another room.

I should mention that in infrequent instances, I still do need to make amplitude adjustments inside HW to balance out some lower tones, particularly among "round" bourdon-like (limited harmonics) stops. This is very much sample-set-dependent and is also not characteristically related to certain pitches. Perhaps I have not found the "perfect" measurement protocol for my room and equipment, at least with respect to potential resonances. Perhaps there is none. But I have always maintained that the major Dirac Live enhancement of realism derives from the correction of timing/phasing/impulse-response. This seems to benefit the entire room.

In case you have wondered, it only takes a single mouse click to turn Dirac Live correction "off" for listening with headphones.

I might also mention that using Dirac Live does appear to reduce my HW polyphony, but it is eminently worth the CPU "expense." Besides, since I neither like nor use "rear" channels, I find no difficulty living with a measured static polyphony of 4008.

I hope this helps.

Don

P.S. Jan - thanks for the YouTube link. Nice demo, though I agree that for 6 channels, that would be pricey!
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby Jan Loosman » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:25 pm

Hello Thomas

In this link you can read the Dirac manual .
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... l+v1.1.pdf

You can use Dirac in a 8 channel configuration, so 6 front and 2 rear channels should be possible.
I use Dirac as a Vst in Reaper in the main track just behind the Hauptwerk Vst.
The Dirac vst is still in beta fase????, but they allowed me to use it so i think if you want to use it as a Vst you have to ask. I don't know about the new version which is comming soon.

As i understand Don Vlazny is using the stand alone version of Dirac, in this version you have to use the asio4 all drivers to rearoute.
The first measurment is the most important one, it has to be on the organ bench because it sets the correct timing of al the channels for the sweetspot. The rest of the measurments can be done in a small spot ( chair ) or a larger (sofa) or even a much larger (auditorium) space.
If you practice at home you can use the chair or sofa setting for best results on the organ bench and if you give a concert you can set Dirac to correct a larger space. Just one mouseclick to change.

In my situation the sofa measurments gave good results so i think it depends how large the space is.
Don has a large room and Abaymajr uses Dirac in a mid-sized Church.
Some experimentation has to be made to achieve the best results i guess.

Measurments always have to be done when you are online because of licence check.
With the Vst mode measurments have to be made through the Dirac vst.

When you start using Dirac al the voicing you performed before can be deleted because this is often done to correct roomnodes etc. which are now corrected with Dirac.
The only voicing you can do is to suit your taste.

Dirac is a great piece off correction software. Once used there is now way back.

Regards Jan
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Re: Roomcorrection software

Postby Lauwerk » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Thomas -

My first efforts with Dirac Live were in late 2014 and early 2015. I do not precisely remember my dissatisfaction with the outcome of my one and only "auditorium" measurement. Maybe I could have improved my method with that mode, but I did not try. In my notes from my subsequent efforts with "sofa" measurements, I repeatedly wrote comments about increasing the sound level for these 9-point measurement sets. Now that I have looked through these notes, I have realized that it is quite likely that my truncated attempt with the auditorium mode was fatally underpowered. I should not offer a real opinion concerning the ultimate capabilities of "auditorium" mode.

The "sofa" microphone layout that became my final, successful approach is 12 feet wide and three feet front-to-back. The "position 1" that Jan referred to is centered in this pattern side-to-side, 2 feet behind its front edge, which I set as the back of the pedalboard. The front edge of this "sofa" layout (i.e., the back of the pedalboard) is 7 feet away from the front of the main speakers, and the "sofa" is 4' 8" wider than the midlines of their boxes. Microphone height for all 9 measurement locations is 55 inches (i.e., not sofa-sitting height). The intention of this layout is to "catch" the sound measurements, with all their time-dependent features, at a reasonably forward position in the room, centered with respect to the organ loudspeaker axis (the room has significant asymmetries). The expectation is that the sound processing based on these relatively near-field measurements would benefit throughout the room. This has turned out to be the case.

Jan is correct: I do use Dirac Live as stand-alone (no DAW), and this does require internal assignment using ASIO4All – a great tool.

Semi-random comment:
This is perhaps not the best place for me to note my gratitude to abaymajr for his mention of System Explorer back in February. Using a different utility, I had attempted to permanently reset wisptis priority to "Low," but that utility rapidly proved unstable and I jumped at removing it. Now with System Explorer, I have not only safely reset wisptis to "Idle" (=>"Low" in the Task Manager), but I have reset Hauptwerk to "Real Time." I have accumulated a lot of time using these settings, and I have had NO negative experiences. Instead, the sound output seems both more robust as well as more consistent (between system starts) than it used to be. The difference is subtle but, I think, real. This difference has caused me to wonder whether having HW set to a higher priority than Dirac Live (both had previously been "Normal") has clarified or streamlined some processing. By the way, setting HW to "Real Time" has apparently also eliminated the one final, occasional "pop" that I used to experience about 20 minutes after start-up. I never did identify its source. I am using Windows 7 Pro with a 12-thread CPU.

I'm sorry that I cannot really help regarding "auditorium" mode. Perhaps you can get it to work well, or perhaps you can devise a good (near-field) "sofa" for your smallish church. I do agree with Jan about "no way back" regarding Dirac correction once you incorporate it.

Best regards,
Don
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