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Kienle Resonator Modules

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Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby Romanos » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:19 pm

Hello All--
I was wondering if anyone here has heard in the flesh, or experimented with the Kienle resonating "speakers"?

http://www.kienle-orgeln.de/en/kienle-klangabstrahlung/modelle/index.php

I am super intrigued. Apparently these are mostly a european thing however I'm genuinely open to inquiring about their price. That said, I'm not in a position to audition one myself (although the recorded a/b comparisons are very exciting). The theory behind them seems very reasonable.

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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby nrorganist » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:07 pm

Very interesting approach.

About price, the Kienle website does have a cost comparison of II/15 and III/35 pipe organs and slightly larger handling Kienle systems on the 2nd page of the English PDF:

https://www.kienle-orgeln.de/en/medien/Print/Kostenvergleich-Englisch.pdf

Would be interested to hear what you learn and can conclude.

Thanks,
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby johnstump_organist » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:14 pm

Are these any different than the old Conn organ pipes?
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby Romanos » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:49 pm

If I'm not mistaken these are much more advanced than the conns... I think the Conns were mostly for show were they not? I'm sure the principal is similar however Kienle has done active R&D since the 70s up to present day.
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby Romanos » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:50 pm

nrorganist wrote:Very interesting approach.

About price, the Kienle website does have a cost comparison of II/15 and III/35 pipe organs and slightly larger handling Kienle systems on the 2nd page of the English PDF:

https://www.kienle-orgeln.de/en/medien/Print/Kostenvergleich-Englisch.pdf

Would be interested to hear what you learn and can conclude.

Thanks,
Mark


Thanks for finding this document. I had somehow missed it. It looks like they are more expensive than I realized... :? Still though, I can see genuine benefit to this route, especially for churches.
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby NickNelson » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:36 am

Romanos wrote: Still though, I can see genuine benefit to this route, especially for churches.


I agree it's an interesting approach, and ought to produce realistic tone quite efficiently for the fundamental and a few higher harmonics. Two reservations I have:

The longest resonators in the publicity information look like 8', probably they would not reproduce 16' tone well (or at all), and almost certainly not contribute lower.

To work optimally, I would presume the resonators need to be tuned according to the pitch and temperament they will be used with. This might cause difficulties for HW users who like to keep and use the original pitch and temperament of sampled organs.

I might well be wrong on both counts of course.

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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby Romanos » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:51 am

From some of what I read on their website, there are some arrangements where more than one resonator sits above the same speaker. I'm guessing then that each resonator is bringing certain harmonics of the same signal they all receive to the fore. They also reference down-firing subwoofers in some of their cabinets. Bass frequencies are the least directional so I think they don't even bother routing them through the resonators. They also mention the particular benefit to the improved dispersion of higher frequencies so I guess that's their primary aim. From all the "research" I've done, I think the only way to really get oomph for bass is moving a large volume of air the old fashioned way. (Interestingly enough, there are a few people around the web that have experimented with large tube subs (15" diameter and 12' long) but with mixed results).
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby jbittner » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:54 am

Romanos wrote:If I'm not mistaken these are much more advanced than the conns... I think the Conns were mostly for show were they not? I'm sure the principal is similar however Kienle has done active R&D since the 70s up to present day.

The Conn pipes are tuned chromatic resonators. In what way are Kienle more advanced than the Conn's?
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby Romanos » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:55 am

jbittner wrote:
Romanos wrote:If I'm not mistaken these are much more advanced than the conns... I think the Conns were mostly for show were they not? I'm sure the principal is similar however Kienle has done active R&D since the 70s up to present day.

The Conn pipes are tuned chromatic resonators. In what way are Kienle more advanced than the Conn's?


Well, you learn something new every day. I thought they were just for show. I had no idea they were that functional. I suppose the theory is the same then.
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby jkinkennon » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:42 am

I'm wondering why this looks a tiny bit like a good idea and can only conclude that it's because the resonators are shaped like pipes. Are the resonators tunable in case the organ is not at A-440? Why would deliberately creating a rippling frequency response be helpful? Why would emphasizing the "hoot" of the fundamental improve the sound? By comparison, overpriced "monstrous" cables are actually heavy gauge copper and don't do any damage to the audio.
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby Grant_Youngman » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:13 pm

I listened to the demos and comparisons. At least in the recordings, the "resonator" sound recordings were about what I would have expected, while the "speaker" sound recordings just sounded like the typical recordings of a low quality and lifeless digital organ.

I guess my concern would be that while the pipes may give "dispersion" to an otherwise poorly arranged audio system in a small space, they might also color the sound on their own, detracting from a properly sampled pipe or set of pipes. It seems that a large multichannel "speaker" system could do at least as well — of course, neither, at scale, would necessarily be what a typical personal budget could endure :-)
Last edited by Grant_Youngman on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby Romanos » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:17 pm

Grant_Youngman wrote:I listened to the demos and comparisons. At least in the recordings, the "resonator" sound recordings were about what I would have expected, while the "speaker" sound recordings just sounded like the typical recordings of a low quality and lifeless digital organ.

My sentiments exactly. I'd guess that these work their best with dry samples in lively rooms. Something akin to those HW vendors who offer totally dry sets with the expectation that they are implemented in large rooms and *actually voiced*.
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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby magnaton » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:16 pm

I did some research on the Conn pipes a while back after seeing several sets appear on eBay. It seems Kienle are the updated, modern version of this concept. The pipes look fantastic and from the literature, they technical data to back up their claims.

The Conn pipes were metal resonators (of different lengths and diameters) sitting on up-firing 6 X 9 speakers. They were designed so that a select set of voices (from the String family if memory serves) are routed to them. They did indeed enhance the overall tone for Conn organs and the quasi pipe like appearance was a visual bonus.

I agree with Grant that the multichannel capabilities we have with Hauptwerk can accomplish an audio equivalence at less cost.

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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby scottherbert » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:21 pm

On E-bay I found an array of pipe-speakers made by Baldwin! I never knew they made such a thing! They used full range speakers in the top of brass (looking) tubes of various diameters and lengths for higher pitches, and larger ones in wooden facsimile 'pipes' in the rear. No clue as to how they sound, but the idea was interesting. My guess is that they were intended to bounce the sound off of the ceiling.

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Re: Kienle Resonator Modules

Postby engrssc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:51 pm

We did something similar a long time ago using large diameter cardboard rolls. Everything from 4" to 12"..The open end faced the floor up about 8". As far as sound, not very impressive.

Rgds,
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