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VI AUDIO FLOW

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engrssc

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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostThu May 20, 2021 11:00 pm

Not sure what that page about not using IE is on Drew's web site? I've never used anything but Chrome.

Rgds,
Ed
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dw154515

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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostThu May 20, 2021 11:09 pm

engrssc wrote:Not sure what that page about not using IE is on Drew's web site? I've never used anything but Chrome.

Rgds,
Ed


What?
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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engrssc

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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostThu May 20, 2021 11:51 pm

Sorry, about that but a page appeared after I clicked on your link, Drew, lasted for almost a minute and then disappeared. Really strange. I didn't make a screen shot, but the page indicated IE wasn't supported and offered 3 clickable links for Chrome, Firefox and Edge. Then disappeared, after which without my doing anything, the video started. Caught me off guard. I did check and for sure I'm using Chrome. Haven't any idea where that page came from but for sure it was there.

That said, I'm wondering if a hacker got in there momentarily somehow?

I re-tried the video link later without that strange page appearing.

The video serves to make the setup clearer than just text would do. You did a great job making for a good understanding of an initially complex setup. Nice to be able to review and "absorb". Thanks.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostFri May 21, 2021 8:47 am

dw154515 wrote:Ok, everyone, here is a video tutorial of the "basic" process.

I decided to start a blog on my website devoted to various Hauptwerk-related subjects. Feel free to message me and suggest videos/topics.

https://www.drewworthen.com/post/hauptwerk-multi-channel-audio

THANK YOU, so much, Drew!

I've just watched the video. Fantastic! I'm now starting to understand and feeling more confident about being able to set things up (and also experiment with different configurations).

Your video provides a huge step forward for me.

You've mentioned plans to release additional videos. That's great news, also!

Lawrence
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voet

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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostFri May 21, 2021 10:35 am

This is really helpful, Drew. Thank you again for your generous help to the Hauptwerk community.
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 8:47 am

Drew,

I finally took the plunge from stereo to an 9 channel setup (8 monitors & a Sub) with the MOTU Ultra Lite mk5 on my Mac Mini setup with HW 7. Your video was wonderful and I wouldn't have figured it out just from the manual. I think I have a grasp on the big picture now, not sure.

I have two problems and I am not sure if it is the set up in HW or a MOTU issue, I actually think one is HW and the other is MOTU.

First, I set up Divisions as my mixer bus group, i.e Great, Swell, etc. I am routing each of them to 4 (2 stereo pairs) of the 8 channels (4 stereo pairs). The Great and Swell go to 4 monitors and Choir and Solo go to the other 4, and the pedal is going to the Great and Swell 4 monitors and the sub woofer. When I select a single rank with in a division and it doesn't matter which division I chose, the notes only sound on every other key on the default algorithm and no matter which algorithm is chosen, I can not get all keys to sound if I play a chromatic scale. I have watched your video 3 times and feel like I set it up correctly, and it seems to be an algorithm issue, I don't know what else to do. Interestingly, the Headphones play ALL THE NOTES on a chromatic scale, but the speakers don't and the SUB is getting nothing at all.

Secondly, the Volume on the Ultra Lite mk5 is VERY LOW, I had to bump up the trim to +10 in HW, and it seems there is no control from the Ultra Lite device (you can select it to go to +12 for each of the channels but nothing happens). The headphones have a MUCH higher volume and taking HW to +10, I have to trim down the Headphones in the Ultra Lite which does respond to the volume control.

Any help anyone can give me would be great appreciated, I have spent three entire days watching the video and reading the manuals and do not know what else to do.

Scott
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mdyde

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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 9:23 am

Hello Scott,

SKresge wrote:First, I set up Divisions as my mixer bus group, i.e Great, Swell, etc. I am routing each of them to 4 (2 stereo pairs) of the 8 channels (4 stereo pairs). The Great and Swell go to 4 monitors and Choir and Solo go to the other 4, and the pedal is going to the Great and Swell 4 monitors and the sub woofer. When I select a single rank with in a division and it doesn't matter which division I chose, the notes only sound on every other key on the default algorithm and no matter which algorithm is chosen, I can not get all keys to sound if I play a chromatic scale. I have watched your video 3 times and feel like I set it up correctly, and it seems to be an algorithm issue, I don't know what else to do. Interestingly, the Headphones play ALL THE NOTES on a chromatic scale, but the speakers don't and the SUB is getting nothing at all.


Taking your Great+Swell group as an example, the problem will be that you have one or more mixer buses included in that group which has no audio device channels selected for it (or those audio device channels aren't working for some reason, e.g. incorrect cabling, or amps turned off/down).

On the "General settings | Audio mixer bus groups" screen you should have two (and no more) buses ticked (enabled) within your Great+Swell group. For example, let's say that the buses that you put into the group are primary bus numbers 20 and 21.

Now go to the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen. Click on primary bus number (e.g.) 20, and make sure that you have the intended stereo device channel pair (the ones for your first Great+Swell speaker pair) selected for bus 20's "Audio output device channels: Channels" setting. Now do likewise for bus number (e.g.) 21, making sure that its audio output device channels are set for your second Great+Swell speaker pair.

(The reason that you would hear primary buses through your headphones even if no speaker channels were selected for them directly, is that all buses mix down [via their "Sends: to master mix buses"] to the master mix buses by default, specifically so that you can always hear everything through headphones, and not just certain ranks.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 12:39 pm

mdyde wrote:Taking your Great+Swell group as an example, the problem will be that you have one or more mixer buses included in that group which has no audio device channels selected for it (or those audio device channels aren't working for some reason, e.g. incorrect cabling, or amps turned off/down).


Channels 1-2, & 3-4 from the router are Great/Swell and 5-6, & 7-8 are Choir/Solo. Channels 9-10 are for the SUB and 11-12 are for Headphones. First off the problem is with two stereo sets. Channels 1-2 & 7-8 (and if I switch the cables around it is 3-4 & 5-6, the problem follows). I noticed in both HW and in the Router application that Channel 9 is lighting up for every keystroke on all manuals and it is not selected in the Audio Mixer Bus Groups Screen, only two boxes are ticked for each division like it is intended, how is 9 lighting up and nothing is coming out of the subwoofer?

Everything else seems to be set up like you stated and Drew's Video showed which seems to be what you are saying.

Scott
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mdyde

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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 1:23 pm

Hello Scott,

First, for good measure, go to the "General settings | Audio device and channels" screen and check that the device channel numbers are still mapped in their default way, i.e. channel 1 -> device channel 1, 2->2, 3->3, 4->4, 5->5, etc.

I assume by 'Router' you mean your audio interface's control panel software, so that your device channels are as follows:

- Device channels 1+2: Great/Swell stereo speaker pair 1.
- Device channels 3+4: Great/Swell stereo speaker pair 2.
- Device channels 5+6: Choir/Solo stereo speaker pair 1.
- Device channels 7+8: Choir/Solo stereo speaker pair 1.
- Device channels 9+10: Subwoofer (stereo).
- Device channels 11+12: Headphones (stereo).

You could set things up as follows, for example:

- On the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen:

------ Master mix bus 3 (sub-woofer):
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 9+10.

------ Master mix bus 2 (headphones):
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 11+12.

------ Primary bus 20:
----------- Name = "Great/Swell stereo speaker pair 1".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 1+2.

------ Primary bus 21:
----------- Name = "Great/Swell stereo speaker pair 2".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 3+4.

------ Primary bus 30:
----------- Name = "Choir/Solo stereo speaker pair 1".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 5+6.

------ Primary bus 31:
----------- Name = "Choir/Solo stereo speaker pair 2".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 7+8.

- On the "General settings | Audio mixer bus groups" screen:

------ Group 20:
----------- Name = "Great/Swell".
----------- Buses ticked (and no others): 20, 21.

------ Group 30:
----------- Name = "Choir/Solo".
----------- Buses ticked (and no others): 30, 31.

- Now load St. Anne's, and go to the "Organ settings | Rank routing ..." screen and route the ranks as follows:

------ All Great ranks, and all Pedal ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 20 ("Great/Swell").

------ All Swell ranks (for example, since St. Anne's doesn't have a Choir or Solo):
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 30 ("Choir/Solo").

Does that solve it?

SKresge wrote:I noticed in both HW and in the Router application that Channel 9 is lighting up for every keystroke on all manuals and it is not selected in the Audio Mixer Bus Groups Screen, only two boxes are ticked for each division like it is intended, how is 9 lighting up and nothing is coming out of the subwoofer?


Yes -- that would be normal and expected, assuming that you currently have your device channels 9+10 selected for one the 'master mix' buses on Hauptwerk's Audio Mixer (as opposed to having either of those device channels selected for any of the primary buses), because all primary buses mix down to the master mix buses by default:

mdyde wrote:(The reason that you would hear primary buses through your headphones even if no speaker channels were selected for them directly, is that all buses mix down [via their "Sends: to master mix buses"] to the master mix buses by default, specifically so that you can always hear everything through headphones, and not just certain ranks.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 2:48 pm

mdyde wrote:- Now load St. Anne's, and go to the "Organ settings | Rank routing ..." screen and route the ranks as follows:

------ All Great ranks, and all Pedal ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 20 ("Great/Swell").

------ All Swell ranks (for example, since St. Anne's doesn't have a Choir or Solo):
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 30 ("Choir/Solo").

Does that solve it?


Nothing is different, went to a different mixr preset completely, did everything you stated in your last reply. Loaded St. Anne and assigned them as specified and still the same problem exists, every other key is strong/weak, volume very low and in the headphones it is solid. I triple check the monitors to be assigned like the device mapping in the last response as well. I am ready to through 3K worth of equipment in the trash right now. You are assigning the Pedals to the monitors how does it know to route stuff to the subwoofer which still has no sound at all coming out of it?

Scott
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostWed Nov 02, 2022 4:27 pm

I use a separate bus group of all mono audio channels, each assigned to a Mono bus, to test my audio system for things like imbalances between speakers. In a different mixer preset, set up a bus group of all the mono devices, listed below the stereo pairs in the dropdown where you set each primary bus's output.

Using the Dynamic: Cyclic algorithm, you can prove whether your audio interface, amps, and speakers are all working and at the same level by playing the same note on one stop repeatedly and hearing it from each speaker. I use St Annes GT Trumpet or Diapason. Of course it won't sound the same on the subwoofer (or different speaker models), but low notes should be present.

Does the above test show that your note played mono is equally loud from every speaker of the same type, and all speakers near enough in volume? If not, fix that first.
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 4:27 am

SKresge wrote:othing is different, went to a different mixr preset completely, did everything you stated in your last reply. Loaded St. Anne and assigned them as specified and still the same problem exists, every other key is strong/weak, volume very low and in the headphones it is solid. I triple check the monitors to be assigned like the device mapping in the last response as well.


Hello Scott,

To add to Mark Nailor's reply (which I agree could be a good way to test the levels and functioning of the individual speakers, cables, etc. -- you could try that too in yet another mixer preset if needed):

In the example configuration in my previous reply, one other important point that I didn't specifically mention, but probably should have, is that you would also potentially need to check that:

- On the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen:

------ Master mix bus 1 (main/recording):
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = <None>

... since with all-default settings, device channels 1+2 are selected for that particular master mix bus (so that everything is set up by default for basic stereo output through them). You would want to set master mix bus 1's device channels to <None>, since in your case you're instead using devices 1+2 as a member (primary bus 20) of the Great/Swell group. (If master mixer bus 1 was configured also to use device channels 1+2 then device channels 1+2 would be receiving signal simultaneously for all notes via master mix bus 1, and also/additionally for alternate notes via primary bus 20, resulting in alternate notes being twice as loud.)

Probably obvious, but with St. Anne's loaded, do also make sure that on the "Audio Mixer, Routing, ..." large control panel that you have the intended mixer preset selected, so that St. Anne's is indeed using that mixer preset.

If you then draw just a single Great rank (e.g. Great Trumpet 8) and play a chromatic scale, do you hear all of the notes at approximately equal amplitude?

If not, when you play a C note (for example), on the Audio Mixer screen, for which buses do the green virtual LEDs light up? How about the red virtual LEDs? (The green and red LEDs indicate audio signal going to, and from the relevant bus, respectively.) Which green, and which red, virtual LEDs light up when you play a C# note on that same rank?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 3:00 pm

A small part of the original question was in relation to overall volume. (headphones louder than main outs). I just wanted to be sure that you know the Micro-lite power/volume button can be momentarily pressed to change from adjusting headphones to adjusting main out. It toggles back and forth with every press. If I misunderstood the original question just ignore this post.

Regards,
Ray
Ray
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 7:53 am

mdyde wrote:In the example configuration in my previous reply, one other important point that I didn't specifically mention, but probably should have, is that you would also potentially need to check that:

- On the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen:

------ Master mix bus 1 (main/recording):
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = <None>

... since with all-default settings, device channels 1+2 are selected for that particular master mix bus (so that everything is set up by default for basic stereo output through them). You would want to set master mix bus 1's device channels to <None>, since in your case you're instead using devices 1+2 as a member (primary bus 20) of the Great/Swell group. (If master mixer bus 1 was configured also to use device channels 1+2 then device channels 1+2 would be receiving signal simultaneously for all notes via master mix bus 1, and also/additionally for alternate notes via primary bus 20, resulting in alternate notes being twice as loud.)


Thanks Martin, that was still set to 1+2, and now is set to none. I have since corrected the volume issue as well. So I think it is all working. My question to you is about the rest of the defaults that are populated in the Master Mix & Primary Bus lines.

The Master Mix 2 (headphones) and 3 (sub) are the only one to have audio channel selected all others should be <none>, correct?

When I have the Audio Mixer screen up, Master Mix 1-5 have green lights on at all times without pressing a key and 2 & 3 have the blue and red which I am assuming since I have device selected. Should they all be Green?

The default populated Primary Bus 2-8 are all Blue and 8 is Green and Red without pressing a key, and all have 1-5 ticked for "Sends to Master Mix Bus", is that correct?

Now when I play chromatic scales on the different division the green lights alternate on 20/21 and 30/31 respectively. I am assuming with the algorithm that is correct. So only two of the monitors will sound a single note from a single rank of the four set up for that division?

I appreciate all your help, just want to make sure all those defaults are not supposed to be unticked.

Scott
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Re: VI AUDIO FLOW

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 9:56 am

SKresge wrote:Thanks Martin, that was still set to 1+2, and now is set to none. I have since corrected the volume issue as well. So I think it is all working.


Thanks, Scott. Excellent.

SKresge wrote:My question to you is about the rest of the defaults that are populated in the Master Mix & Primary Bus lines.

The Master Mix 2 (headphones) and 3 (sub) are the only one to have audio channel selected all others should be <none>, correct?


Correct.

SKresge wrote:When I have the Audio Mixer screen up, Master Mix 1-5 have green lights on at all times without pressing a key and 2 & 3 have the blue and red which I am assuming since I have device selected.


Correct. The organ's blower will be playing sound, and by default all primary buses send to all of master mix buses 1-5, so that's fine. Even though the green LEDs for master mix buses 1,4,6,7,8 may also light up (constantly or sometimes), you won't hear them since no device channels are selected for them, so they're harmless.

SKresge wrote:... Should they all be Green?


What you're seeing is as expected, and fine. (Master mix buses 6,7,8 only get signal if you 'pan' ranks to surround/3D perspectives via the voicing screen. You aren't doing that, so just ignore all the master mix buses apart from 2 and 3.)

SKresge wrote:The default populated Primary Bus 2-8 are all Blue and 8 is Green and Red without pressing a key, and all have 1-5 ticked for "Sends to Master Mix Bus", is that correct?


Primary buses 2-8 would be lit in blue, which is fine, since they're in groups, but you aren't actually routing any audio to those groups, so you won't hear them.

However, in your desired audio routing (and the example I described) primary bus 8 should *not* be lit in green (and thus not in red either), since you wouldn't actually be routing any audio to it. Check on the "Organ settings | Rank routing ..." screen that you haven't accidentally left any ranks' "Rank output perspective 1" settings set to their default of group 5. Make sure that *all* ranks instead go either to group 20 or group 30 (whichever you like for the relevant ranks). E.g. perhaps some 'noise' ranks (maybe the blower) or similar are still routed to group 5.

Also try "Engine | Restart audio/MIDI", since routing changes for the blower (which sounds constantly) wouldn't take effect until the blower next restarts, which would happen (for example) when audio/MIDI starts.

SKresge wrote:Now when I play chromatic scales on the different division the green lights alternate on 20/21 and 30/31 respectively. I am assuming with the algorithm that is correct. So only two of the monitors will sound a single note from a single rank of the four set up for that division?


That's correct. You have two stereo pairs in each group, and the default allocation algorithm (cyclic) will cycle between the buses (stereo pairs) in the group, so notes will indeed alternate between your two stereo pairs.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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