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1961TC4ME wrote:Hello TubaFan,
I'd go into some detail on how I'd try routing, but I need more info and how you lay things out will make a BIG difference. You mention having 22 studio monitors. What I'm wondering first is, how many channels are you working with? If you use 22 monitors are you planning to have a group of 11 on the right and 11 on the left with separation between the two groups, or are you planning to have them all together in one area with no L/R separation? Then, are they stacked in any way shape or form, or are they laid out in one single row from right to left?
Marc
magnaton wrote:Sounds like you have given this some thought. I agree with having a default set to get accustomed to and will allow you to make any voicing tweaks as time goes on.
I'm not sure of you intent of the 4 speakers on their backs facing upwards for a little bit of everything. These are near field monitors and really won't offer much pointing straight up. If these were source point speakers like those found on an Allen organ, then there is benefit from having them reflect the sound vs pointing direct. I don't won't to discourage you from trying your design, IMHO I would add these 4 speakers into on of your existing groups for main audio duty. It's okay to have an odd number or odd (stereo) pair in a group. Putting them in 'working' groups is more beneficial to help spread out notes & ranks. Try it both ways and report back to us
You probably have done this already, copy and paste the stop list from the audioangelorum website into a spreadsheet and create your route map (or two) with that. This makes a nice design tool and when you go into the HW rank routing menu, you simply follow it as a guide making it much easier.
Yea, I don't know whats going on with the Berry 2031A supply! I'm a fan of Presonus too so the R80s look like a nice choice especially with the ribbon tweeter. I'd consider the new Adam Audio Tv8 monitors as they are less expensive but not as powerful as the R80s. I'm guessing you'll be using the MOTU 24Ao audio interface?
BTW, consider yourself lucky getting to install this system in a choir loft! You won't have to worry about sound hurdles others face when placing the organ in the front:
- speaker placement
- speaker exposure
- can the congregation hear the organ as well as the choir (or vise versa)
- can the person in the last pew hear and feel the instrument
- will the person in the front pew get blasted on loud registrations
Regards,
Danny B.
johnstump_organist wrote:Are you going to do stereo or Mono? Drew of Greenwood Methodist went with Mono and I think he settled on my idea of groups of four using tone matching mode 1 which makes all the notes of any triad come out of separate speakers. It makes a big difference to my ears.
If you go with stereo, that would take 8 speakers to achieve the same effect.
Reeds and Mixtures especially sound much better using tone matching mode 1 as it eliminates a lot of distortion.
If going stereo, you might try one group of 4 stereo pairs to route reeds and mixtures (maybe some of the richer 8 Principlas as well) to and then the rest in 3 stereo pairs.
I wouldn't do it by division unless you have enough space to physically separate the divisions so that people in the church can hear the physical separation. In the case of sampled organs, I think it is better to get the notes separated into different speakers as much as possible.
If you went with the 4 stereo pairs for reeds and Mixtures and three stereo pairs I would do something like:
Gt Principal 8 - pair 1 Octave 4 pair 2 Fifteenth pair 3 Gt 8 flute into pair 2 4 Flute into pair 1 etc.
Then follow a similar plan for other divisions separating the 8's as much as possible into the three pairs, the 4's .
That way when playing on a single division you have the stops coming from as many pairs as possible and when coupling the same pitch level from each division would be out of different pairs.
If going mono, I would have 5 sets of 4 and one stereo pair placed as high as possible. Divy the stops of each division up among the 5 sets as much as possible and use the single stereo pair for solo reeds that will only have one or notes at a time played on them.
John
ppytprs wrote:I don't think I'd do it like that. You've then got only 4 speakers going on for your main 'weight' - the great and pedal flues.
As has been mentioned, it is fairly easy to audition different configurations these days.
There is no one right answer. Any number of ways can yield satisfactory results.
The routing algorithms do make a difference.
There'd also be a fairly strong argument to just send everything to all speakers and let HW route it itself.
I've done a big church installation with 48 channels. I just did 12 speakers per division, with choir and solo shared. It worked very well. I auditioned the different routing algorithms (though I can't remember which one I landed on). But I didn't try any different stop routings because the speakers were arranged in a divisional fashion.
I've also done an 18 channel installation. This had channels for great and swell, 4 for choir and 2 for pedal. This time the speakers were arranged inside a pipe organ, so again the split divisional speakers made sense.
I did a small installation with only 8 channels for a 2 manual organ. That of course just got the whole organ routed between the 8 channels.
They all sound good.
Best way, if you've got time to play with it, try out a few different ways, like Drew did. I didn't have this luxury as when doing the installation as a job, there's only so long you can spend working on it. If you're going to be there every week, you can play as much as you want.
TubaFan wrote:johnstump_organist wrote:Are you going to do stereo or Mono? Drew of Greenwood Methodist went with Mono and I think he settled on my idea of groups of four using tone matching mode 1 which makes all the notes of any triad come out of separate speakers.
magnaton wrote:Review this past thread of a large church install. This link will take to you a great discovery of not lining the speakers straight out.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&p=129767&hilit=array#p129767
dw154515 wrote:Since my name came up a few times on this thread, I thought I'd throw my hat in this ring....
I would like to clarify a couple of small things first off....
TubaFan wrote:johnstump_organist wrote:Are you going to do stereo or Mono? Drew of Greenwood Methodist went with Mono and I think he settled on my idea of groups of four using tone matching mode 1 which makes all the notes of any triad come out of separate speakers.
Partially true. Yes, all mono! Since Hauptwerk affords you multiple "Alt Configs," I have one configuration setup as 6 audio groups, of 8 speakers each, using the Cyclic algorithm as the Main Config. (Remember, I'm still using version 4 at GUMC with plans to update to VI eventually....) and Alt Config 1 is setup as you mention, John, with groups of 4 with Tone Matching Mode 1.
In full disclosure, I am so happy with the way the Primary Config works, that I have not invested the time in setting up all of the organs in Alt Config 1 (using Tone Matching Mode 1 and 4 speakers per group). I initially did this config after not being fully satisfied with the Redlands Casavant Set, thinking it could benefit form some major routing changes. As it turns out, it just sort of "is what it is" and that's a separate conversation.
After spending a lot of time studying Leo's excellent speaker routing spreadsheets, it dawned on me that IN THEORY, the Tone Matching Mode 1 with 4 speakers per group, might actually be an awesome way to go about it - AT LEAST ON PAPER but I haven't taken the time to invest into the experiment like I should! As Danny can attest, I tend to have 2304203958 projects going on simultaneously and its hard for me to focus on one thing for long.
That said, just about any useful info I can add to this thread is already covered in the other thread - which you've already read it sounds like. I would advise mono for sure. If you have a large space, don't over think it! Just do it like you'd expect in an actual pipe organ, as best as you can. Don't worry about ambience speakers, etc. Keep them all pointed/aimed at different directions - much like pipe mouths, you don't want all that sound going in one solid straight line! Reflections are your friend!
The last thing I want to clarify....magnaton wrote:Review this past thread of a large church install. This link will take to you a great discovery of not lining the speakers straight out.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&p=129767&hilit=array#p129767
The speaker layout in that picture is NOT what ultimately became the "final" arrangement; that was just the first trial and error layout after I realized that flat-to-front, tightly-packed was NOT working.
The current and "final" speaker placement is TOTALLY random! Some speakers are on their sides, some are flat to font, some are shimmed to face slightly up or down, some are turned 90 degrees left or right of center, etc. etc. etc. Basically, nothing is pointed backwards or facedown (obviously) or straight up, but there is NO PATTERN to it. I just went willy-nilly and moved them all around. I also added a third row of shelves on each side, extended each from 12' to 18' long, and spaced the speakers out as much as I could. Don't let them get within a foot of each other - 16 to 24" apart is ideal - otherwise they start to reinforce one another. In my case (and I'll assume yours) I got this mid-low range "bloom" - muddy, blehhh...... and the more stops/notes got added, the worse it got. I initially thought this was due to poor sub crossover, or poor EQ-ing of the overall audio system, but alas, it was speaker placement!
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