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Subwoofer comments please

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mnailor

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostWed Jan 05, 2022 4:24 pm

TubaFan wrote:Headphones aren't producing sound in the open air though. In a small space, having a subwoofer that goes down to 16Hz isn't that important, but the product mentioned above doesn't seem like a good choice to use for low organ bass. There are plenty of subs that get much lower that aren't too expensive. It just gets much more expensive when you chase the 16Hz mark.


I agree the SW 150 isn't a great choice for an organ.

But I don't think that the $1000 I paid for an SVS PC2000 that "chases" and hits the 16 Hz mark at -3 dB a couple years ago was any more expensive than good subs that hit 20 Hz. (The current version PC2000 PRO is $1100.) It does the job of shaking the house throughout the 32' octave, and I didn't have to build anything myself. Some of my main speakers cost as much as that, each.
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jkinkennon

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostThu Jan 06, 2022 10:25 am

Whether one wants or needs to hear the fundamental of a 32' low C is a personal thing. I sold my sub along with a church installation and am making do with a pair of Wharfedale full range 15" speakers that go down to about 25 Hz. I miss the Rythmik Audio F15HP but have not yet replaced it.

There are only a handful of subs that do a creditable job at 16 Hz and most of them are priced quite high. SRS has been mentioned and certainly Rythmik Audio makes some of the finest subs at prices beginning around $1500.

There is no need to find a 64-foot space to produce a "full wave". That is a resonant node that is best avoided if possible. The room size is NOT a factor except to the extent that it is much easier to produce 16 Hz in a smaller room. Large spaces such as sanctuaries require higher power subs, and usually more than one sub, to produce vibrations which can be felt.

Most of us need to get by with what we can afford and can settle for the very realistic harmonics of the lowest notes which are easily reproduced by more affordable subs.
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TubaFan

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostThu Jan 06, 2022 10:28 am

jkinkennon wrote:There are only a handful of subs that do a creditable job at 16 Hz and most of them are priced quite high. SRS has been mentioned and certainly Rythmik Audio makes some of the finest subs at prices beginning around $1500.


I totally agree. We are using 2 Rythmik FV18 subs.
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Romanos

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 11:49 am

Part of the issue is you don't want to buy a sub that can only, just barely, reach to say, 28hz, where you'll be slamming it all the time with pedal 16's It's a bit like trying to race the indy 500 in a Corolla. It will go around the track, yes, but you'll burn the engine out. Lots of subs have RMS and "Peak" ratings which means they can technically get excited, but only briefly for an explosion. Similarly, if you get a cheap sub, and then try to play literal pedal tones through it all the time, you'll burn it out. Having a sub that is designed to go lower will indeed play whatever low frequencies you give it better, and easier, than those subs that can just barley handle them.

Which is a better scenario: a Corolla driving 95mp for an extended period of time, burning out its engine, or a souped up muscle car that is rated to 150mph? Obviously the latter. You buy the car for the extra muscle so it can do ordinary things with ease in a way that ordinary cars simply cant.

There's also confusion about room gain; you don't necessarily need an uber powerful (ie 2000 watts RMS) subwoofer to fill a small room, but physics dictate that you still need a relatively large and capable sub to produce very low tones. Don't expect your best buy special to be all that pleasing. Small rooms, with subs in the corner, will benefit from "room gain" which means that the lowest notes will seem louder than their anechoic rating because the room helps amplify the sound. But if your sub only digs to 40hz, no amount of room gain is going to make you hear low C 16' (let alone 32's) with any true satisfaction.
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Romanos

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 11:50 am

Oh, and FWIW, I used to have an SVS PB2000 (sold it after my daughter was born because I couldn't use it) and it was very capable and officially rated to 17hz, if memory serves. Their larger subs have quite a bit more oomph.
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magnaton

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 3:04 pm

IainStinson wrote:Perhaps it is sensible to consider the listening space dimensions when looking for an appropriate sub.Iain


I agree. A 16" sub in a small room (say 13' x 13') is not as efficient as a 10". In fact it may sounds worse.

I always recommend going with a well built sub with lots of power like those mentioned earlier (SVS & Rythmik) several sizes and designs are available. For a small space consider Presonus Temblor T10. Its a studio sub that is well built, maybe a bit under powered, but in the right space it works fine. There are inexpensive subwoofer DIY plans you can purchase from the internet. This route is usually cheaper but by the time you buy lumber, power amp, sub driver, etc. your finished product may not be that much less than the comparative retail unit. In this category, the two I'm familiar with are the Housewrecker and TubaHT.

Finally keep in mind that for organ 16' (and or 32' in some cases) pedal pipe recreation, the sub needs to produce a deep sustained note being held. Think Bach BWV 540 :-). All subs listed here can do that and have quality surrounds that will keep doing it for a long time!

Danny B.
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damuehlbauer

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostFri Jan 07, 2022 6:42 pm

There was some very interesting and quite tecnical discussion, but I just want to go back and respond to the writer's original question. I have two studio monitors and run my Paramount 341 on just two channels (stereo). I was able to pick up a used Yamaha HS10W Subwoofer for a very reasonable amount, and ran the monitors through the sub. The specs say it goes down to 30Hz. I think it works just fine for the small space I have. It definitely improved the bottom end. I never use the 32' pedal stops -- they just don't work without a mega subwoofer that I don't have room or budget for.
David Muehlbauer
Mesa, Arizona USA
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peterorg

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 3:45 am

Thank you to everyone who took the time to join in the discussion prompted by my original post. Like the last poster, damuehlbauer, I only have a relatively small space for my Hauptwerk setup and accept that I am not going to be able to achieve stunning sound from 32' ranks. Some supplementary bass for the 16' ranks would make me a happy bunny. I discovered a friend of a friend has a Yamaha NS-SW100 and he is going to bring it over for me to try out in a week or two. At least that will give me a chance to consider whether going down that route would be beneficial in my situation.
A belated Happy New Year to you all and thanks again.
Peter
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dhm

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Re: Subwoofer comments please

PostSat Jan 08, 2022 8:24 am

The PreSonus Temblor T10 allegedly goes down to 20Hz and is very reasonably priced.
The M-Audio BX Subwoofer also does (or did) but appears to be unavailable now.
Douglas Henn-Macrae
Authorized Hauptwerk Reseller
http://www.midi-organs.eu
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