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Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

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Wayne Grauel

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Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostFri Feb 10, 2023 7:44 pm

I am at my wits end. I have my Rank Routing set for

mixer group 1 close RP & SW
group 2 close HW & Ped

Group 3 Front

4 Rear

If I have 4 speakers for Close 2 front and 2 "mid room" - How can I mix some of the front with the close
it appears I have to have all or nothing with the mixer output channels. I can send front to the close speakers and thats it.

what part of Mixer am I not getting? I have a 24-4-2 presonus digital mixer so it's not like I'm new to audio. I thought I had this mastered until I wanted to have "some of this here" and "some of this there"

Logic tells me that If you could route pipes ( ranks ) to more than one buss, then problem solved. I tried numerous times sending ranks to other perspectives ( what ever that means) and I end up with dead notes hear and there depending on what channels of audio im running. - that really has me puzzled so I figured that isn't what I want to do.

Can someone draw me a flow chart of how on earth you send signals to more than one buss?

Ive been at this all afternoon, and it's now 7:40 pm so if I sound just a little frustrated I apologize.

Wayne
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mnailor

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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostFri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm

The all or nothing idea isn't accurate, fortunately.

The mixer flow is explained on page 216 of the Hauptwerk 7 Installation and User Guide. I can't explain it better than that.

Mixer bus groups (page 221) can contain the same or overlapping sets of speaker pairs (primary buses), or be disjoint. So you can have close and middle groups share some of your speakers, just by checking some of the same primary buses as outputs in two or more bus groups. One group can contain anything from one pair to all of your speakers.

The bus group assigns each speaking pipe to one of the speaker pairs that you checked for the group, using the allocation algorithm you selected. That assumes the group has more than one output primary bus, of course.

There's also no restriction against having the same speakers (audio channels) get output from more than one bus, which you might do to apply a different reverb (IR) through the same speakers. I don't think you need that.

Rank perspectives (previous chapter) duplicate the same or a revoiced signal from ranks so you could copy the rank to a different bus group if wanted. Not sure that's what you're after, but it's there. In Rank routing, you can choose a bus group for each perspective of a rank, usually just perspective 1.
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Wayne Grauel

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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostFri Feb 10, 2023 9:34 pm

Hi, yes, I have looked at "most" of that but unless I am overlooking something

I am not seeing how to - in this simplified example mix:

speakers 1 & 2 (Close Speaker group) -| Set: to mix 20% of bus group 'front" with 80% of bus group "close"

Speakers 3 & 4 - Front Speaker Set mix 80% of bus group "front"

Speakers 5 & 6 - Rear Speaker Set mix 20% of bus group "front" with 50" bus group "rear"

in the Audio Mixer Screen:
If I were to send bus group "close" to channels 1 & 2 at 80% ( of what ever db = desired sound level
And then send bus group "Front" to channels 1 & 2 at 20% to mix some front in with close.

At this point If I want to send group Front to speakers 3 & 4
And then mix some of Front to mix with Rear in speakers 5 & 6 - I'm sorry but I'm not finding the solution to that problem

I'll copy this to the general discussion in case anyone has any input..
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Wayne Grauel

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I'm having some trouble routning audio so posting here

PostFri Feb 10, 2023 9:51 pm

I just wanted to run this up the pole and see if anyone has a clue? I'm getting all or nothing when mixing from mixer bus groups to the mixer. What I mean by that is - have one group sent to the mixer ( at 100% level I want ) and then select another group and send it to the mixer - BUT - I want to add that to the group I just mixed and maybe 20% ( the same two mixer channels) from what I can see I'm done If I want to send that group to another mixer group

See the example below. I didn't think it would be clear without the previous explanation. What am I missing here?

I am not seeing how to - in this simplified example of a mix:

speakers 1 & 2 (Close Speaker group) -| Set: to mix 20% of bus group 'front" with 80% of bus group "close"

Speakers 3 & 4 - Front ( ranks ) speaker group mix 80% of bus group "front"

Speakers 5 & 6 - Rear ( ranks ) Speaker group mix 20% of bus group "front" with 50" bus group "rear"

in the Audio Mixer Screen:
If I were to send bus group "close" to channels 1 & 2 at 80% ( of what ever db = desired sound level
And then send bus group "Front" to channels 1 & 2 at 20% to mix some front in with close.

At this point If I want to send group Front to speakers 3 & 4
And then mix some of Front to mix with Rear in speakers 5 & 6 - I'm sorry but I'm not finding the solution to that problem

Anyone know what I'm missing.
Thanks
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mnailor

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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostFri Feb 10, 2023 10:51 pm

(Attempted solution deleted bc I'm pretty sure I don't have the whole problem.)

It sounds like you are trying to do what would be fairly straightforward on a real mixer (hardware or DAW), but here HW allocates pipes to speaker pairs within a group, whereas a trad mixer wouldn't distribute notes/voices like that.

It would be easier if your audio interface has a built in mixer app like RME or MOTU gear. The HW mixer isn't a full implementation of a traditional mixer board, though it uses the same terminology, and this type of goal is much simpler to get right with visible channel strips.
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 2:31 am

Does this do what you want to split and mix signals? This is just an example of how splitting and routing works, not your complete example worked out.

You have to start with a rank and know where you want it to end up sounding from, in what proportions (not try to make groups do weird things internally). Then you can multiselect ranks to do the rest.

Say you want a rank to sound at 70% from your front speakers and 30% from your middle speakers. I'm just making that up, since I don't understand exactly how you want ranks routed.

In Rank voicing, you would set the rank's perspective mix output percentages to perspective 1 at 70% and perspective 2 at 30%. In Rank routing, set that rank's perspective 1 output to your front speaker group and perspective 2 output to your middle speaker group.

You can't easily mix groups at unequal percentages onto speakers as you described, though I came up with an inconvenient way using duplicate primary buses at different levels. The problem there is that pipes assigned by the group onto speakers set to different levels will sound very uneven as you move from note to note (your front group at 20% on 1/2 but louder on 3/4).
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 5:33 am

Hello Wayne,

[I've merged your second topic into this one. If you wouldn't mind, please avoid 'cross-posting' duplicates in several places so that people don't end up replying unnecessarily in duplicate, or replying without being aware of others' existing replies -- many thanks.]

Within Hauptwerk, there are potentially two ways you could do what you want:

----------------------------
Method 1:
----------------------------

If you have no more than 8 stereo pairs of speakers (i.e. no more than 16 speakers, if used as stereo pairs), then you could simply use the 8 'intermediate mix buses' on the Audio Mixer (without needing to change anything on any other screens). The mix buses are used exactly like aux. sends/buses on a traditional analogue/digital mixing desk. To do that:

--- Select your audio device channels (stereo pairs) for the intermediate mix buses, and give them memorable names according to the speakers you've selected for them. For your example, for the "Intermed mix 1" bus you might select device channels 1/2 and name it something like "Speakers 1/2".

--- Now for the primary buses, set the audio device channels back to '<none>', and, in the "Sends: to intermediate mix buses" section at the bottom of the right-hand pane [you might need to scroll the screen to see it, or make the window taller] instead tick the appropriate intermediate mix buses according to the speakers you want to send them to, and adjust their "Level adjust (dB)" as desired. Note that you can send any given primary bus to more than one intermediate mix bus, and that you can send multiple primary buses to the same intermediate mix, thus allowing you to mix them down to your speakers however you like.

Hence this approach is the same one that you would use if you were using a physical mixing desk.

----------------------------
Method 2:
----------------------------

The second way to do it is to use the four output perspectives, as Mark Nailor described. They allow you to route any given rank/pipe to up to four different groups simultaneously, with different levels for each. (You use the "Organ settings | Rank voicing and surround/3D/perspective panning" screen to send the pipes at the desired levels to the four output perspectives, and then use the "Organ settings | Rank routing ..." screen to define which groups the four output perspectives go to.)

However, unless you have more than 8 stereo pairs of speakers (given that there are only 8 intermediate mix buses), it would be simpler instead to use 'method 1' above (intermediate mix buses), so I'd prefer that approach.

[I'll move this topic to the 'Amplification' section of the forum once you've had a chance to read it.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 7:34 am

Good Morning Michael and Martin.

Thanks to you both for the help, - Especially you Michael who attempted several work-arounds. That takes time, I know,

My problem was nonexistent here in my studio. I have 10 channels of audio and it's as easy as sending out "monitor mixes" to the desired locations. ( as long as you have independent discreet audio channels ).

I want to play some literature on a "real organ" at my current position. When I went to set up an ALT-configuration and a 2nd mixer preset. The Allen organ in the chapel only has 5 channels of audio there. 2 Sw, 2 Gt and a 5th Pedal ( sub) channel for 16' stops. This is when things went sideways by was attempting to mix the Close Ranks and and a percentage of "Front Ranks" to the 4 channels. Due to the size of the room, I need to limit how much front is being added to the main speaker systems. I was planning on bringing in a pair of Def Tech to place on the front wall of the chancel behind the choir. I would have added more "front" to that mix to add some depth to the room. So, I've printed out this thread and will get started re-inventing my wheel.

One big Ah-Ha moment was Michael's comment " If I had an MOTU interface. Since I'm about a little over a month into using Hauptwerk, I've been doing more playing than exploring the intricacies of stuff like the MOTU interface.
Yes I do and I think that has merit. I have a 1822 mk5 and will explore that I idea also so I can go from configuring Hauptwerk audio routing and get back to practicing! FWIW - I am planning on routing the 4 main channels of the Allen as follows: Ch 1&2 SW / RP Ch 3 & 4 Gt / Ped Ch 5 mono to the sub with all 16' and 32'. I use all three divisions as floating divisions so I can select from [HW / SW + RP] [ HW + SW ] [ HW + RP ] [ SW + RP } .


** I will add for anyone who's reading this thread, I started out with a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen interface. That unit either had some problem right of the box - or not, but the I had some digital glitches, and the user interface was less than friendly. After following a Julian Krause from Germany on Youtube he had the same opinion as me, The Interface was a pain. ( in his opinion ) The MOTO has a great interface and a more robust A-D and D-A conversion chip. It's been bullet proof so far. Other than coming with a Wall-Wort for a PS which I swapped out for a conventional 15v PS with an AC plug and a LONGER CORD!**

If you all have anything to add to this, please chime in,.

Best Regards and Thanks Again!!
Wayne
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 8:52 am

Thanks, Wayne. You're very welcome.

[Topic moved here.]

Wayne Grauel wrote:Good Morning Michael and Martin.


mnailor is actually a 'Mark', not a 'Michael'.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 9:34 am

Thanks, Martin, for talking about using intermediate buses. I used them for a little while (for reverb) and then forgot they existed. Definitely a cleaner approach. Presumably your method 1 would expand up to 16 stereo pairs by using master and intermediate buses the same way, if not using master buses for mixdowns.
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 9:42 am

Yes -- one could also use some or all of the master mix buses in the same way, if one doesn't need them for other things (e.g. a recording mix-down). If doing so, the following would be important:

- For the primary buses being routed to intermediate mix buses, un-tick their sends to the master mix buses. (Some of them are ticked by default.)

- (Likewise, make sure that you don't also send the intermediate mix buses to the master mix buses.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Wayne Grauel

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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 11:40 am

Now I have NO audio.

Before when I set everything to none i had audio coming in on Ch 7 & 8

I discovered way way down the list ( in the 100"s ) were some entries in the audio mixer primary bus groups.

that stopped that, now no matter what I route to what, there is no audio. Ive checked rank routing and every mixer setting and nothing renders audio.

I can switch back to mixer preset 1 thats all working.

I've been at this for several hours and can't find the problem. I took screen shots of all my screens if there's some place to attach them.

At this point I'm ready to say the Heck with it and use the mixer profile I used for Christmas Eve. - though that was set up after first installing the program and that was a baptism by Fire to have that ready.

let me know if I'm missing something,
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 11:59 am

If you're on HW 7, you can use the indicator lights to see what mixer components are actually connected from ranks of the loaded organ and track activity when you play a stop. From the release notes:

"Each of the real-time audio/routing settings screens now has a new column of blue virtual activity LEDs. If
an organ is loaded, they indicate whether each of their items is currently configured potentially to be
audible. Specifically:
o For the “General settings | Audio mixer” screen: the blue indicator LED will be lit (only) if an
organ is currently loaded, and the bus belongs to the organ's currently-selected mixer preset,
and anything is routed to the bus (if a primary bus: if it belongs to any groups – even if no ranks
are routed to those groups; or if a mix bus: if any buses send to it), and the output of the bus is
routed anywhere (to audio device channels directly, or indirectly via mix buses). Hence if an
organ is currently loaded and if the blue LED is not lit, then nothing will be able to be heard
through the bus.
o For the “General settings | Audio mixer bus groups” screen: the blue indicator LED will be lit
(only) if an organ is currently loaded, and the group belongs to the organ's currently-selected
mixer preset, and any ranks are routed to the group, and the group is non-empty (contains any
buses). Hence if an organ is currently loaded and if the blue LED is not lit, nothing will be able to
be heard through the group.
o For the “Organ settings | Rank routing ...” screen: the blue indicator LED will be lit (only) if the
rank is currently loaded into memory and the rank is routed to at least one non-empty bus
group. Hence if the blue LED is not lit, the rank will not be audible.
• The virtual activity LEDs on real-time audio settings screens now have black backgrounds, so that it's
easier to see when they're lit, and the duration of their flashes has been increased, so that it's easier to
see their activity. In particular, that makes it more immediately obvious where things are being routed on
the real-time audio settings screens."
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 12:24 pm

Hello Wayne,

To add to Mark's reply, note also that the green LEDs on the mixer screen show when audio signal is coming into a bus, and the red LEDs show whether audio is going out of it (to audio device channels, and/or to any sends).

For example, pick a rank, then

- On the "Organ settings | Rank routing to audio mixer bus groups" screen, for the relevant rank, verify that its blue LED is lit constantly, and that its green and red LEDs light up as you play the rank (indicating that audio is going into, and out of, the rank).

- Then on "General settings | Audio mixer bus groups" screen, for the group to which you intended that rank to be routed, verify that its blue LED is lit constantly, and that its green and red LEDs flash as you play the rank (indicating that audio is going into, and out of, the group).

- Then on the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen, for the intended primary bus(es), verify that its blue LED is lit constantly, and that its green and red LEDs of the intended primary bus(es) light up as you play that rank (indicating that audio is going into, and out of, the the primary bus).

- If so, and assuming you're trying to set it up as I described in "method 1" (i.e. using intermediate mix buses), then: check that do likewise for the intended intermediate mix buses.

If at any of those stages either the green or red LEDs don't light then you can see straight away where the problem is. For example, if the green LEDs light up for the intended primary bus, but not the red, then you aren't currently routing that bus to anything (to any audio device channels or sends).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Rank Routing - Then mixing close, front and rear

PostSat Feb 11, 2023 12:51 pm

ok and Mark, sorry I called you Micheal B4. it was early.

one odd behavior ( just testing routing etc with RP division) close set to Close 1 ( to keep it simple )

with the P8, its sounding from F to E in all octaves I just did a restore from my saved settings when I copied the organ to ALT 1. This has been quiet a frustrating experience. I' check status after it reloads and I get some lunch.

thanks all
Wayne
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