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Confused by 'Perspectives'

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damuehlbauer

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Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostWed Feb 14, 2024 6:13 pm

I'm probably over-complicating this, but after many years of using Hauptwerk, the Audio still confuses me.

I have HW 8 and generally use the Paramount 450. I only have two studio monitors and a sub-woofer. I route all the audio through the sub, and then from it to the monitors.

I'm just trying to have basic stereo sound. So what is the significance of the perspectives that appear in the Audio Mixer? Specifically, it shows some combination of these four perspectives being output when I play a note.

Primary 0005 'Outp persp 1 (front 1/main) spkrs01'
Primary 0006 'Outp persp 1 (front 1/main) spkrs02'
Primary 0007 'Outp persp 1 (front 1/main) spkrs03'
Primary 0008 'Outp persp 1 (front 1/main) spkrs04'

The manual is so complicated in trying to deal with users who have multiple channels.

If that is normal, then it would just help if I understood why?

Thanks.

P.S. Edited to fix typo.
Last edited by damuehlbauer on Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Muehlbauer
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostWed Feb 14, 2024 6:49 pm

Perspective 1 is, by default, the only active perspective. You can ignore perspectives 2, 3, and 4 unless you have a specific need to enable them.

The extra perspectives allow you the option to send a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th copy of the rank's audio to different audio groups or primary buses. I only use them to create a rear surround perspective to add convolution reverb (after truncating releases on that perspective) for a few organs that are too dry for me.

If you had pairs of speakers located in different areas of the room (rear, for example), you could possibly use the extra perspectives to make a non-surround (stereo only) sampleset into a surround one, but mostly I haven't had much success with that because it's the same sample, not actually recorded from the rear, like a car stereo that duplicates the front stereo to the back speakers. Yes, you can add convolution and play with voicing, but it's still just a duplicate. I tend to avoid non-surround samplesets because actually having surround ranks recorded at a different mic position for my rear speakers sounds a lot better.

P.S. You don't have multiple channels, since you're only sending one stereo pair out of HW to your sub, and the sub is sending its high pass to your speakers. You don't even need the multichannel chapter for that. The factory default stereo output would have worked.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostWed Feb 14, 2024 8:22 pm

damuehlbauer wrote:I'm probably over-complicating this, but after many years of using Hauptwerk, the Audio still confuses me.

I have HW 8 and generally use the Paramount 450. I only have two studio monitors and a sub-woofer. I route all the audio through the sub, and them from it to the monitors.

I'm just trying to have basic stereo sound. So what is the significance of the perspectives that appear in the Audio Mixer? Specifically, it shows some combination of these four perspectives being output when I play a note.

Primary 0005 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs01'
Primary 0006 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs02'
Primary 0007 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs03'
Primary 0008 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs04'

The manual is so complicated in trying to deal with users who have multiple channels.

If that is normal, then it would just help if I understood why?

Thanks.


First of all, by default, primary buses #0005-0008 are labelled as "Outp persp 1 (front 1/main) spkrs 0x", not "Outp persp 2..." as you wrote down. Don't know if it was a typo of yours or for some unkown reason those buses' labels were renamed to "Outp persp 2...".

On merit, the stops routed to "Rank output perspective 1 (front 1/main)" at "Rank Voicing and Surround/3D/Perspective Panning" window (which, by default, are all stops of all samplesets I know) are routed to a group of 4 primary buses (#0005-0008), which are automatically alternated between different notes and ranks. I think the idea behind this is to distribute sound output between more than one pair of speakers for the sake of a better/distributed sound power amplification, better sound spatialization and/or to mitigate audio distortion. For people with just one pair of speakers (or more speakers connected to single L/R stereo output), this preset is transparent, I mean, it works as a simple stereo speaker routing because those 4 buses of speakers are sent/mixed into Master Mix 5 and Master Mix 1 buses (and then to audio device) as they were a single bus from the start.

Don't know if bus allocation algorithm adds a CPU overhead (Mike could elucidate this to us), but if someone is upset with this possibility, "Rank output perspective 1 (front 1/main)" destination mixer bus/group can be modified from "Group 0005 'Outp perspctv 1 (front 1/main) spkrs' <buses:4>" to "Bus 0005 'Outp persp 1 (front 1/main): spkrs 01'", which will turn bus allocation algorithm off.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 6:11 am

Hello David,

[I'll move this topic to the 'Amplification' section of the forum once you've had a chance to read it.]

To add to others' replies:

damuehlbauer wrote:I have HW 8 and generally use the Paramount 450. I only have two studio monitors and a sub-woofer. I route all the audio through the sub, and them from it to the monitors.

I'm just trying to have basic stereo sound. So what is the significance of the perspectives that appear in the Audio Mixer? Specifically, it shows some combination of these four perspectives being output when I play a note.

Primary 0005 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs01'
Primary 0006 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs02'
Primary 0007 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs03'
Primary 0008 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs04'


Given your audio hardware (a single pair of stereo speakers, fed via a sub-woofer) there's no need for you to learn or use any of Hauptwerk's audio routing facilities at all -- you only need a single stereo output from Hauptwerk anyway. On the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen, from the default settings, if they aren't already selected (audio device channels 1+2 are selected by default), all you need to do is to select your pair of audio device channels for the "Master mix 1 ... (main/recording)" bus.

If instead you're considering adding more pairs of speakers for doing more complex routing (such as routing some ranks to one pair of speakers, and others to another), then I'd recommend starting by reading the "Audio routing and impulse response reverb part 1 ... : adding overall reverbs, surround/3D sound, stereo-only sound, and routing concepts for basic use" section in the user guide (pages 208-226 in the v8 version). It explains the four output perspectives and how to use them for configuring surround/3D-sound (routing any ranks to any of four speaker pairs) in depth. Please do read that whole section -- it's thorough, with simple click-by-click examples for the most common scenarios. E.g. within that section:

- Page 213 explains how to use the "Organ settings | Rank voicing ..." screen to route ranks to the four perspectives, and how to select audio output device channels for the four perspectives on the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen (master mix buses 5-8).

- The "Example 2: surround/3D sound output, optionally plus a sub-woofer" sub-section (pages 221-224) has click-by-click instructions for configuring the four output perspectives.

The four output perspectives are usually used for 'surround' sound (e.g. routing some ranks to a 'front' pair of speakers, and other ranks to a 'rear' pair), and the perspectives are named appropriately for that by default. E.g. output perspective 1 is suffixed with "front 1/main", and output perspective 3 with "rear 1/main".

However, if you had 2-4 pairs of speakers and mainly use dry/stereo sample sets (such as theatre organs), you could instead use the four output perspectives (with a speaker pair selected for each of their master mix buses on the Mixer screen, as covered in the above example instructions) to route different ranks to different ones of your speaker pairs according to the ranks' theatre organ chamber.

For example, if you had just two stereo pairs of full-range speakers and you use theatre organs, you might use:

- Output perspective 1 for the "Main" chamber's ranks.
- Output perspective 2 for the "Solo" chamber's ranks.

The "Example 2" instructions (pages 221-224) would then give you click-by-click instructions for setting that up.

[It's only if you want to use more than four stereo pairs of speakers, or if you want to do more complex things such as routing a rank via a group to distribute pipes within the rank amongst multiple pairs of speakers, that you need to learn or use the primary mixer buses or "General settings | Audio mixer bus groups" or "Organ settings | Rank routing" screens. Those things are covered in depth in the "Audio routing and impulse response reverb part 2 ... : multi-channel audio, multi-channel virtual acoustics, and routing concepts for advanced use" chapter in the guide -- pages 227-257.]

Hauptwerk's primary mixer buses and groups are intentionally configured by default so that they're already set up appropriately for doing what 99% of Hauptwerk users of need (for up to four speaker pairs -- most semi-professional audio interfaces have up to 8 output channels), with only a small number of clicks needed to route ranks and select device channels for them. The example sub-sections in the audio routing chapters have click-by-click instructions for doing those things.
damuehlbauer wrote:Specifically, it shows some combination of these four perspectives being output when I play a note.

Primary 0005 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs01'
Primary 0006 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs02'
Primary 0007 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs03'
Primary 0008 'Outp persp 2 (front 1/main) spkrs04'


[As abaymajr noted, they're actually labelled "... outp persp 1 ...", not 2.]

Just for reference, those primary buses are configured that way by default to make it very quick and easy for people to distribute pipes automatically amongst four stereo pairs of speakers if they want to, as covered in the instructions in the "Example 3: simple multi-channel audio with 8 (or more) speakers configured as stereo pairs all in a single group ..." sub-section (pages 239-244) of the "Audio routing part 2 ..." chapter.

abaymajr wrote:Don't know if bus allocation algorithm adds a CPU overhead


No -- the default settings (e.g. primary buses 5-8 and their group) add negligible overheads. There's no need to do anything with them if you don't need them.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 10:53 am

Thanks everyone, and my apologies for the typo. My organ is on one side of the room and my normal computer is on the other. I just didn't transfer the information correctly.

I think I understand this now. My organ is in a small den, so I don't know if I will ever have more than the current three speakers. But, if I get brave some day and maybe try for five (two pairs + sub), I think I will be prepared to tackle it.

The fact that HW sends the four 'perspectives' (illuminates the LEDs) even if you are NOT using them was probably what puzzled me.
David Muehlbauer
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 11:27 am

Thanks, David. Excellent. You're very welcome.

[Topic moved here.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 11:39 am

damuehlbauer wrote:The fact that HW sends the four 'perspectives' (illuminates the LEDs) even if you are NOT using them was probably what puzzled me.


But does it do that? Those four buses are all from perspective 1. Where is it lighting indicators for all four perspectives? The perspective mix % is zero for perspectives 2, 3, and 4 unless you changed them.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 12:07 pm

I suspect David might have meant to write that primary buses 5-8 illuminate (which are all in the group to which output perspective 1 is routed by default) as notes are played for ranks.
Best regards, Martin.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 1:56 pm

Yes, I need to be more clear in my terminology. What Martin said is correct. :D
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 2:01 pm

Maybe this exists in the manual and I missed it, but a definition (or even a graphic) of the terms would be really helpful:

Bus, group, perspective, mix, channel, etc.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 15, 2024 2:18 pm

damuehlbauer wrote:Maybe this exists in the manual and I missed it, but a definition (or even a graphic) of the terms would be really helpful:

Bus, group, perspective, mix, channel, etc.


Page 227 in the HW8 manual.

The Information button labeled "i" on each settings screen.

https://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/blog/un ... hw5-mixer/
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostFri Feb 16, 2024 10:24 am

Thanks. I may flowchart this myself someday, just to understand it myself. If I do that, I'll share it with a few folks for feedback.
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostSun Feb 18, 2024 7:23 am

Hello David,
look at my german documentation (link in my footer section below). I have included a chapter on Hauptwerk basics in my multi-channel documentation (from page 20). My documentation has already helped some people to understand the topic and to create a multi-channel configuration.
I go into the perspectives from page 25 onwards. It might be helpful for you to translate a few pages with deepl.com. I think that will help you.

Edit:
Translation from page 5

The goal - in a nutshell
We have stops (in Hauptwerk ranks),
at a certain position in the room (in Hauptwerk perspective)
via audio connections (in Hauptwerk buses)
with a sound card are to be made to sound (in Hauptwerk Audio output)

This corresponds to the sequence that you would imagine without any further technical issues.

From a practical point of view, the last two steps are carried out first because we need the settings in the first two steps.
settings in the first two steps.

This statement with the Hauptwerk terms will help you to understand the individual the individual subject areas.

Best regards
Wolfgang
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostThu Feb 22, 2024 9:09 pm

damuehlbauer wrote:Thanks. I may flowchart this myself someday, just to understand it myself. If I do that, I'll share it with a few folks for feedback.


I know exactly how you feel! I spent quite a while trying to read the relevant chapters in the manual and I won't tell you how long it took to get my head round the audio routing. But it was four days I would never get back!

Sadly, Hauptwerk is not much for diagrams of any kind and the descriptions of every item seem to be sentences that contain many of the same words and if just one of those words ever changes a beginner has to assume that they are two different things.

My guess on "perspectives": Assume you have a stereo system set up in a large hall and you are using a dry sample set. You might want to also have configured a headphone output that is directed to a different audio channel and with added reverb to compensate for losing the acoustics of the room. Each of those settings could be on a different perspective to allow easy switching.
Richard
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Re: Confused by 'Perspectives'

PostFri Feb 23, 2024 1:12 pm

Hello David and Richard,
that doesn't have to remain an assumption. When using the word "perspective", a distinction is made between two things:

1. when recording a sample set, the microphone position determines a perspective, such as front or rear.

2. in Hauptwerk, this is a branching mechanism where a register can be routed to a primary bus or to an audio group that contains one or more primary buses. So this is a "perspective" that "can do a bit more" (apart from the fact that a primary bus can also do a bit more than just provide an audio output).

Best regards
Wolfgang
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