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Headphones for Hauptwerk

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pedro

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Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostMon May 13, 2024 10:43 am

Hello All,
Does anyone know the best headphones these days, to use with Hauptwerk?
Thanks a lot!
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Arp

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostMon May 13, 2024 1:10 pm

pedro wrote:Hello All,
Does anyone know the best headphones these days, to use with Hauptwerk?
Thanks a lot!


I have had many headphones over the years, I can say that the best I have tried are the Grado Reference series RS2
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tf11972

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostMon May 13, 2024 3:28 pm

Headphones are always a matter of taste, my personal favourites are the AKGs K-812 and K-872.
Best regards
Thomas

Forestpipes - Virtual Pipe Organs
https://forestpipes.de
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pedro

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostMon May 13, 2024 3:40 pm

Wow ,very pricey!I guess the K-872 are the best of the best?
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Stuart

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostTue May 14, 2024 7:14 am

Although I don't use headphones on a regular basis, when I've needed them, I've been very satisfied with a pair of Beyerdynamic DT 770 PRO 32 Ohm Over-Ear Headphones. I had seem them used by some other VPO organists on YouTube and thought they might be adequate for my needs. This model is available from Amazon for under $200 - clearly not in the same class as ones like the K-872. Beyerdynamic also has numerous models in the $300-$1000 range that would probably be even better depending on one's budget and audio needs. As an aside, my Beyerdynamic headphones have been a really good match to my Rolands digital piano (FP-30X - a good, but certainly not high-end digital piano). The sound is very full and well-balanced over the entire keyboard range and not much different than using the built-in speakers.
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dhm

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostWed May 15, 2024 8:11 am

Check out Darryl Wood's article about the Superlux HD330 here:
https://www.contrebombarde.com/concerth ... d/limit/10.
I recommend them, and they remarkable value for money..
Douglas Henn-Macrae
Authorized Hauptwerk Reseller
http://www.midi-organs.eu
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larason2

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostThu May 16, 2024 3:07 pm

I have some Grado SR60's, and I think they are quite good. It's hard to get a lot cheaper than that. I'm sure the more expensive headsets are better in many ways, don't get me wrong, but the Grados are good enough for me, and I can hear everything I want to hear from an organ sample set. They are, however, open back.
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josq

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostFri May 17, 2024 1:58 am

audiosciencereview.com is a website that publishes audio equipment reviews based on advanced measurements.

For example, here is the review + measurements of the Grado SR60:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... one.28177/

And here is an inexpensive in-ear that measures extremely well:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... iew.44865/

General remark: in audio, there is often a very poor correlation between price and measured performance. Given the enormous choice and the unreliability of subjective listening impressions, your best bet is to get a product that has good performance in published measurements.
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larason2

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostSat May 18, 2024 6:51 am

Yes, I've seen those measurements before, but I don't think they actually correlate with the listening experience. Most important is the subjective experience, which as the reviewer says, is pretty good in spite of the measurements. If the measurements are bad, you expect it to be bad, but I've always had a good subjective experience of the headphones, even though they supposedly review badly (though note that I have the SR60's, not the SR60x). My experience is that they sound pretty flat, and those two peaks in the middle aren't noticeable to me, and the bass sounds detailed all the way to the bottom and pretty flat. If you look at the other curve for the in ear headphones, it has similar deviations from "ideal," only they are reductions in amplitude vs. increases. So basically, I think the measurements are garbage. Peaks are only meaningful if they are detectable to the listener, and graphs are nice, but they have to translate to user experience. Buy headphones that sound good to you.
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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostSat May 18, 2024 7:11 am

Good, better, best...

Headphones that measure bad can sound pretty good, no doubt. But given the significant measurable flaws it seems probable that there are headphones that sound even better. For example, the rollof in the bass (up to -13 db at 32Hz, the fundamental of the low C of a 16' stop) certainly will be audible in organ music, and many headphones perform better in this regard. So I think that's relevant, because the OP is looking for the best headphones.
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tf11972

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostSat May 18, 2024 1:49 pm

josq wrote:
And here is an inexpensive in-ear that measures extremely well:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... iew.44865/



There are many reviews on the big river which certify them a poor build quality. And for that 50 $ is too much money.
Best regards
Thomas

Forestpipes - Virtual Pipe Organs
https://forestpipes.de
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vpo-organist

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostSat May 18, 2024 5:38 pm

tf11972 wrote:Headphones are always a matter of taste, my personal favourites are the AKGs K-812 and K-872.

Hello Thomas,
I read in German forums, the 812 has a open chacteristic and the 872 a closed one.
The 812 is more neutral and the 872 has slightly overemphasized bass.
The 812 is better suited for mixing. How do you feel about the differences in terms of Hauptwerk?
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larason2

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostSun May 19, 2024 12:30 am

I can hear 32' stops pretty well on the Grados, and they don't sound quiet to me. If you look at a lot of reviews, the curves are all very similar, and as stated, for the headphones I have, the supposed characteristics they have don't match up. So the supposed peaks could well be within the error of the measuring equipment, not detectable to the human ear, or compensated for by the brain, and the supposed listening experience all confirmation bias. Not to say more expensive headphones won't sound better to you, but I don't think we should base purchasing decisions on junk data. Those curves could have been falsified, invented by AI or based on the output of a random number generator, and we wouldn't be any the wiser. Data is a tool, but when the tool is bad, why are we using it? I've never used in ear headphones where I thought the sound was as good as over the ear, so that also makes me suspicious of the methodology. There doesn't seem to be any validation of the curves they are getting, so how do we know they represent user relevant data? I think it's really just a marketing ploy.
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mnailor

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostSun May 19, 2024 12:39 pm

What is Audioscience Review "marketing" such that it would benefit them to falsify their data? There's no gain for them to randomly generate data or present altered results. They state how they acquire the tested units. They are transparent about how they do measurements, so you can replicate their experiments if you wish. They publish follow-on tests when a flaw is discovered. That's how science is done.

The useful thing about consistently measured and reported data is that you can compare products to each other with the same criteria, and you can try out a few products to learn how the measurements correspond to your experience.

That's true even when you don't agree with their conclusions at all. Like reading the same book or movie reviewer -- you learn where they are coming from even even if you like different things, so the reviews can be useful even if you hate them.
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larason2

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Re: Headphones for Hauptwerk

PostSun May 19, 2024 3:05 pm

The data isn't falsified, it's just useless. I'm just saying the average person wouldn't invest in that equipment and replicate their tests, and to my knowledge no one has actually done that, so there is no way to know if they actually represent what you would get if you did the same tests. We also don't know if those tests detect any differences in the product that are meaningful to the consumer. At least in my case, there is no correlation between their "findings" and the actual quality of the product. So even if the data was honestly obtained, can we say it is actually useful? If the answer is no, then honestly we should ignore it.

We know that if an advertisement has data in it (no matter how useless or badly it was obtained), the advertising is more effective. All these online reviews are focused on sales of the material being presented, that's how they make their money. So coming up with some kind of data, no matter how useless it is in assessing the quality of a product, is actually good advertising. I'm not sure why you would defend it if there's evidence that it's useless. However, if we believe its useless, I think we should say so. Do you have a headphone set they review where your impression of the product matches the "findings" of the data? But then, how can you prove it's not confirmation bias? At least in my case I'm pretty sure it's not confirmation bias, because I'm not hearing the things they say I should be able to hear. You can say my hearing isn't sensitive enough, or I have some bias that makes me want to say I don't hear it when I actually do, but why would I do that? In any case a potential purchaser can go try them out and decide for themselves if I am right or not. I don't own any really expensive headphones, but I have tried them out in the store, and I don't understand what's so better about them. That doesn't mean everyone will feel the same. More expensive headphones are subject to marketing tricks too, since margins are always higher on more expensive equipment, which means if its twice as expensive, it usually didn't cost double to make.

So I'm just saying it's not necessary to drink the audiophile kool-aid, and you don't necessarily need to buy really expensive headphones, if a less expensive one will do the job. That's not to say audiophile culture is all bad, since they do drive a lot of innovation in the industry, but if they present data it should be subject to criticism. Data can be useful, but it has to be used properly, and part of that is asking if the data obtained actually detects anything useful. If I have an experience that a particular dataset doesn't appear to provide useful results, then a proponent of it should prove me wrong somehow. But to my knowledge, those studies haven't been done. So if we feel a particular set of data isn't actually useful for helping a prospective buyer to purchase headphones, they should probably know that. The standard advice is to go to a store and audition the ones they have, and I still think that makes the most sense if the data you would otherwise use to make a decision is subject to criticism.
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