Speaker Advice: Another Tapco S5/SW10 combination or not?

For the last two years or so I've been happily using HW2.2 with a pair of Tapco S5s and an SW10 subwoofer fed through an EMU1616M. I'm finally getting my hardware upgraded for using a larger sample set and more speakers. I'm hoping to use the SP Zwolle set, beginning with the wet set and moving to the surround when I get more speakers, which will also mean upgrading to HW3 Advanced. So I've got some questions:

1. If I go for the surround set would it be good to have two more S5s and another SW10 for the rear channels?
2. The Zwolle organ has a 32' stop on the pedal. Is a subwoofer that only goes to 34hz any use on such a stop?
3. Rather than having six active studio monitors (4 x S5, and 2 x SW10), would I be better to consider an amplifier and passive speakers? If so, what hardware should I be considering and would the overall price be similar?

Any comments or suggestions based on experience or professional knowledge would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Philip

[micdev]

Hi Philip,

For a long time I didn't used any sub for the rear channels; I now have a sub, but wouldn't say that it is a "must"; also be careful and make sure to set the phase correctly for the rear one. Something you can do is to route the rear channels's lower ranks to the sub (since bass aren't directional), save the money for a second sub and buy only one good one. A 34hz won't play the lower frequency of the 32' rank. The lower C will produce a 16Hz frequency (at that frequency human don't really hear it, but can feel it...)

Good luck
François

Philip,

The S5's are good monitors, but Mackie has subsequently introduced even better, the MR5 and MR8. For surround wet organs, you want one really great pair (plus sub) in the front and a good pair in the rear. My suggestion would be to use your Tapcos as the rear speakers and buy the MR8 (or much better still a pair of Mackie HR824 MkII or M-Audio EX66) for the front. Another alternative for the front channels would be a used pair of vintage "audiophile" speakers such as the B&W 802F or Magneplanar MG IIIa. I have used both with great success with VPOs.

Any of these options should give you an very fine sound. Remember also that the room your are in has a great influence on the sound. For the wet surround setup you are after, it would be best to have your VPO in a very dead room with lot's of drapes, carpeting, upholstery, or even foam sound absorbers. It also helps considerably to place the front speakers well away from the walls in a "near field" arrangement on the left and right sides of your console. If this seems a bit like a recording studio control room, it's no accident. These steps will help you achieve an illusion of being immersed in the original hall/cathedral/church where the VPO was recorded.

Joe Hardy

François and Joe,

Thanks for your replies.

I think I will take the advice and go for another pair of speakers for the front and get one good subwoofer. The question then is what is the best subwoofer to get? The Mackie HRS120 (http://www.mackie.com/products/hrs120/) looks good, but it's quite a lot more than I would like to spend. I'm not sure what other active subwoofers that go down to 20Hz and automatically split the higher frequencies to the speakers I should consider. Ideally it would be nice to find something that was no more than twice as expensive as as an SW10.

I have read good reviews of the BK range of subwoofers (http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/sub_woofers.htm), but they do not have the L/R inputs/outputs and adjustable crossover like the Tapco SW10, but I think I could use my E-MU 1616M to also send the front and rear surround channels to one of those BK subwoofers and it would play whatever notes were in its range. Might this work well?

Any subwoofer suggestions would be appreciated.

Philip

The Zwolle 32 footer is very weak and gives more harmonics than fundamentals. So in that case is is not really necessary to go far below 32 Hz.

By the way I am the organ expert for the maintenance and future restoration of the Snitger/Flentrop organ and know it quite well !
regards,

Hendrik Kooiker

Thanks Hendrik, I have actually got the Zwolle sample set and on my Tapco SW10 the 32' sounds more like a machine gun than an organ stop. Maybe the SW10 is all I need, but perhaps changing it could bring some overall improvement. I'm not sure.

Thanks Hendrik, I have actually got the Zwolle sample set and on my Tapco SW10 the 32' sounds more like a machine gun than an organ stop. Maybe the SW10 is all I need, but perhaps changing it could bring some overall improvement. I'm not sure.

Thanks to the very flexible (re)voicing possibilities of HW, you can change the machine gun into a decent 32 foot with fundamental tone, as long as you do not make it too loud. That is also valid for the bazuin 16, the stop sounding not as good as the trumpet 16 of the great.
I bought the set above all to see how the voicing of the reel thing can be changed more into the direction of the original Snitger. Thanks to Jiri's belows system, I can also experiment extensively with that part. We hope to restore the 12 mightly bellows the next years, being the only original complete belows system of this school in the world and at the moment out of use.

Hendrik Kooiker

I think I will take the advice and go for another pair of speakers for the front and get one good subwoofer. The question then is what is the best subwoofer to get? The Mackie HRS120 (http://www.mackie.com/products/hrs120/) looks good, but it's quite a lot more than I would like to spend.

Philip,

These are the subs that I currently recommend:

The Rolls Royce is the SuperCube Trinity by Definitive Technology ($2400-$3000).

http://www.definitivetech.com/Products/products.aspx?path=Speakers%20By%20Series|SuperCube%20Series&productid=SuperCube%20Trinity

You've already cited the terrific Mackie HRS120 ($1000):

http://www.mackie.com/products/hrs120/index.html

A strong mid-level unit is the HSU Research VTF-3 Mk3 ($700).

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html

A good bargain sub is the Dayton C1500 kit ($320) at Partsexpress.com.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-770&FTR=c1500%20kit&CFID=8073652&CFTOKEN=78184697

If you can swing it, the Mackie would be an outstanding choice for your system.

The machine gun sound you describe is most likely due to over-driving your current sub and/or monitors.

Any pipes routed to a sub still have upper harmonics that need to be reproduced. This simplest way to accomplish this for your setup would be to route the front left and front right signals to the sub and from the sub to the amps for the front speakers. Some subs have active two-way crossovers (most do not), but you can adjust the low pass to the sub on almost all units. The front monitors may have low frequency roll off switch. The HR824 for example has three positions: flat, 47 Hz and 80 Hz. BTW, the older style HR824 (not Mk II) might be found on ebay or elsewhere for a very reasonable price.

Joe Hardy

Thank you Joe.

The last two look closer to my budget, but getting them from the US to the UK would be quite expensive. Parts Express are quoting 232.62 (USD) for shipping alone. For that reason I think I'm probably stuck with finding a UK supplier. The BK speakers I mentioned look closest to the HSU speaker, but I'm still not clear on how well it would work to route all sound to such a subwoofer and let it handle whatever frequencies it can cope with while also sending all sound to the monitors themselves. It there any real advantage on the kind of pass through filtering and crossover settings on siubwoofers like the SW10 and HRS120?

Philip

The last two look closer to my budget, but getting them from the US to the UK would be quite expensive. Parts Express are quoting 232.62 (USD) for shipping alone. For that reason I think I'm probably stuck with finding a UK supplier. The BK speakers I mentioned look closest to the HSU speaker, but I'm still not clear on how well it would work to route all sound to such a subwoofer and let it handle whatever frequencies it can cope with while also sending all sound to the monitors themselves. It there any real advantage on the kind of pass through filtering and crossover settings on siubwoofers like the SW10 and HRS120?

Philip,

I understand your concern about importing units from abroad. The UK is a country known for top quality speaker systems (B&W. KEF, Rogers, Ruark, Spendor to name a few), so you should be able to find a worthy unit.

Subwoofers typically have speaker level and line level inputs. There is normally a level control and a crossover frequency control. While most subs have line level outputs, these are typically pass-through, meaning the signal is unaltered from the line inputs to the sub. You can adjust the controls on the sub to balance the natural roll-off of your monitors. You will get the most bass if the sub is in the corner of the room, less against one wall, and least out in the middle of the room. Experiment with placement to achieve a smooth blend with your speakers.

Good Luck,
Joe

Well in the end I've gone for a secondhand SVS SB12 Plus and also added a pair of Tapco S8s to my pair of S5s. This intergrates very well with the Tapcos using the inbuilt XLR crossover connections. Supplying the Tapcos through the crossover does add a slight hiss, so I'm wondering if I'd be better giving them their own output and creating another output with all channels for the subwoofer.

The SBS12 is a great improvement on the Tapco Subwoofer. When I was testing it out on the lower pedal notes on the Zwolle organ my wife thought there was Chinook flying overhead.

Thanks for the advice along the way.