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Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby mdyde » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:08 am

Hello David,

It seems to me that your approach to try to 'be' a particular pipe (based on the little information you'll give us about it) doesn't have a great deal of relevance for sample-based organ systems that use accurate per-pipe samples of real pipework in the first place: I would have thought that if you're really trying to design a sound source that produces/projects a complete sound-field as much like that of a given modelled pipe then the signal that goes into it (assuming you were to use a loud-speaker or sampled signal at all) would probably not bear much resemblance to a microphone recording of the output of the real pipe.

Hence my difficulty in seeing how this type of advice is relevant or appropriate for accurate sample-based systems like Hauptwerk, and hence the requests by myself and Brett previously in this topic for you to explain your approach clearly and publicly before offering this type of advice to Hauptwerk users.

Are you saying that you don't think *any* commercially-available, off-the-shelf speakers/amplifiers (whether studio monitor, home hi-fi, audiophile, digital organ speakers, PA speakers, or whatever else) are well-suited for reproduction of dry sample-based organ systems that use accurate per-pipe samples of real pipework?

If not, which specific makes/models do you think would be best-suited and why?
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby David Pinnegar » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:01 am

mdyde wrote:Are you saying that you don't think *any* commercially-available, off-the-shelf speakers/amplifiers (whether studio monitor, home hi-fi, audiophile, digital organ speakers, PA speakers, or whatever else) are well-suited for reproduction of dry sample-based organ systems that use accurate per-pipe samples of real pipework?

If not, which specific makes/models do you think would be best-suited and why?


Dear Martin

The point is that Hauptwerk dry samples are so good, they can do more than most to outwit the ear even with inappropriate speakers. When put through appropriate speakers they can sound even better.

I believe it is true to say that only 0.2% of all music sold currently is classical music. Most commercial speakers will be aiming to do very well with such programme material which, with heavy impulse based bass requirements and percussive top treble to balance, contrasts markedly from the smooth contuous frequencies of classical and in particular organ music.

One therefore has to be very discerning as to the specifications and the suitability of a choice of commercial speaker.

With the heavy continuous bass requirements of organs, of popular commercial designs three way speakers do a better job but few exhibit the most appropriate design characteristics. One day whilst working on the organ I listened to the explosive Lemmens fanfare to which I have given a link using a pair of Realistic Optimus 1000 speakers which I intended to use on the organ. They are very clean with a good big bass driver excellent for a 32ft and have a reputedly flat response. In fact the track through those speakers succeeded in making me jump out of my skin. So tests 1 and 2 passed. They are a good start for a home system, but for my purposes, perhaps too flat to be interesting and make certain stops sound plastic. Test 3 failed but quite good enough for home entertainment.

I don't berate the use of all commercial three way speakers: I exploit the flaws, as far as organ use is concerned, in the TOA 38SD
http://www.toaelectronics.com/disc/manu ... 8sd_im.pdf
There is one figure in that specification which makes it not a universal speaker for my purposes, but it is capable of serving a useful purpose on one channel.

In the cause of the preservation of pipe organs, I'm very happy to see the continuing adoption of standard rugged commercial designs for the rollout of standard electronic pipe organ replacements, with all the disadvantages that electronics bring so that one day people yearn to rebuild their pipe organs. In this thread, however, I have provided hints for criteria for anyone contemplating a prestige installation to consider and, in the interests of pipe organ preservation I do not wish to be more specific in a public forum.

Just as Wilson Audio describe the effects of their crossover but cover it in epoxy to stop competitors seeing it, just as you describe the effects that Hauptwerk achieves but do not put sample set coding in the public arena lest competitors use the technology, we all have our areas of expertise.

Hauptwerk is the most wonderful tool for spreading pipe organ enthusiasm at home, but the last part of the audio chain is important in determining whether in the public arena people are satisfied with electronic systems or only second to pipe organs. Hauptwerk competes with commercial manufacturers and it would be unwise to allow commercial competitors public access to specific instructions both to compete with top Hauptwerk installations and to march ever further forward in displacing pipe instruments.

Best wishes

David P
http://www.organmatters.co.uk
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:38 pm

David Pinnegar wrote: One day whilst working on the organ I listened to the explosive Lemmens fanfare to which I have given a link using a pair of Realistic Optimus 1000 speakers which I intended to use on the organ. They are very clean with a good big bass driver excellent for a 32ft and have a reputedly flat response. In fact the track through those speakers succeeded in making me jump out of my skin. So tests 1 and 2 passed. They are a good start for a home system, but for my purposes, perhaps too flat to be interesting and make certain stops sound plastic. Test 3 failed but quite good enough for home entertainment. David P


Here is a copy of the Optimus 1000 specs.:

Optimus 1000 Oiled Walnut Speaker System
(400-1130) Specifications Faxback Doc. # 52880

Speaker Complement:
Woofer: ....................................................... 15 inch
High-Compliance Woofer

Midrange: ......................................................... 5 inch

Tweeter: .......................................................... 3 inch
Extended Range High-Compliance Tweeter

Impedance: ........................................................ 8 ohms

Frequency Response: ................................... 50 Hz to 20,000 Hz

Power Handling: ................................................ 100 Watts

Sensitivity: .. .......................... 92 dB (SPL at 1 Watt / 1 Meter)

System Resonance: .................................................. 60 Hz

Enclosure Type: ..............Tuned Port Design For Extended Bass Response
Removable Grill

Dimensions: ............................31 5/16" H x 15 5/16 W x 11 5/8" D

Weight: ........................................................... 44 lbs

(RDS 06/01/1999)

Excellent for 32' stops?

So a speaker with a flat frequency response makes stops sound uninteresting and plastic?

If most speakers are so called designed for pop, rock etc. with a skewed response curve and are inappropriate for organ music, as well as flat response speakers, then what are the specifications for a "proper" speaker to produce organ sounds?

Eric
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby telemanr » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:12 pm

Eric, it's only "certain" stops that sound plastic with flat response. See how much more sense that makes? You don't? You just need more experience with fuzzy logic. And perhaps if you faced the East just at 8:47 pm then all would be revealed, but not, of course, in a public forum. Then again perhaps not.
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby Grant_Youngman » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:22 pm

telemanr wrote:Eric, it's only "certain" stops that sound plastic with flat response. See how much more sense that makes? You don't? You just need more experience with fuzzy logic. And perhaps if you faced the East just at 8:47 pm then all would be revealed, but not, of course, in a public forum. Then again perhaps not.


I finally got around to reading the last few pages of this thread. What a hoot. The way the day is going, I needed a good laugh :lol:

And some used to say that Hauptwerk was science project :mrgreen:

Gracious ...
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby pwhodges » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:44 pm

O, PLEASE. Far more specs than those listed (or even available for most speakers) are necessary to even start to characterise a speaker's performance in real life. And using the number of drivers as a way to damn a speaker is simplistic at best - there are features of a speaker which are better served by multiple drivers, and others that are better served by single, or at least, coaxial drivers, but each configuration has disadvantages as well as advantages. Also, there are other matters related to cabinet design and placement.

In any case, it is not a matter of saying, for instance, "Hi-Fi speakers: bad", "Lowther (to pick a name from the air :wink: ) speakers: good" (are Lowthers not hi-fi speakers?). To produce good sound (whether considered as "production" or "reproduction" - there is no inherent difference) requires one to look at the space in which the sound is required, and the way the speaker couples to it. This may indeed lead to the choice of different designs for different cases, but there is nothing especially arcane about it, and no justification for saying that one system or another is better, or more special, or (shudder) more "musical", simply because it is more suitable for a specific situation.

But I'll say no more. If David wants to recommend a system for certain situations, I would be interested to see that recommendation, and the justification for it; but just banging on saying "I have the secret, and I won't tell you except privately, but meanwhile I'll rubbish all other solutions", but in many more words, has become rather a bore.

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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby David Pinnegar » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:47 pm

Eric Sagmuller wrote:Here is a copy of the Optimus 1000 specs.:


Hi!

Frustratingly that spec sheet doesn't tell the whole story.

However I'm glad that some general amusement is being found here. Life can be so much too serious at times. An organist friend of mine recommends that to cope with high blood pressure his doctor wife recommends 20 minutes laughter each day.

The acid test is
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/h ... beware.mp3
If you play this back at a realistic organ volume on whatever speakers you're using and it makes you jump out of your skin, then your speakers have passed the first test. The Realistic did, to my unsuspecting shock, and thereby earned its place in the setup. Please kindly ignore the "organ" - this was three years ago entirely unimproved by additions or proper attention to speakers and you will all recognise that Hauptwerk would have done a good deal better. But it got laughs, and for the purpose intended, it did its job.

The secret of why the Mackie genre of two way speakers is not going to be wonderful at _being_ an organ can be better understood in considering a French Cornet Separé, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45OeT8E37FM but I am not going to explain why in public except, of course for those facing East at 8.47am.

(No joke - having been at Hammerwood for 28 years one does look at things from a different perspective - the front door was around the back and if you wanted to enter from the front you came from the West, faced East and entered through a stone tunnel. This was the design of the great architect of Baltimore Cathedral, Benjamin Henry Latrobe. Hammerwood thought is an initiation.)

Finally, whilst it is appreciated that there is clamouring for specificity in what I'm saying, the fun of a hobby is to experiment, to think about things and try things out. It is this that I am exhorting people to do, and not be satisfied with merely being told what is good, told what to do and being satisfied with the mediocre. I have used a Jamo 2 way speaker of similar relevant specs to the Mackie, and it lacked something. So too did a Realistic 3 way disco speaker, but there are things that one can do to alleviate their deficiencies.

In my postings above, I have deliberately not given instructions or clues as to what to do, nor what to think, but how to think. In doing so, although I have come up with solutions which stand up, others may find better solutions.

Whilst Paul is hazarding guesses :?: (There are many people who vehemently curse the certain brands which he clearly likes and say that they are not hi-fi either . . . ! ) at what I might be doing , and cursing me :evil: for being boring in the process :lol: , I've clearly got him puzzling :idea: . . . With his professional expertise he might come up with something very much more exciting than anything I have done so far as a result.

Pipe organs should not be boring, nor should their Hauptwerk conterparts. They should sparkle and make the hairs tingle at the back of your neck.

Best wishes

David P
Last edited by David Pinnegar on Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:59 pm

telemanr wrote:Eric, it's only "certain" stops that sound plastic with flat response. See how much more sense that makes? You don't? You just need more experience with fuzzy logic. And perhaps if you faced the East just at 8:47 pm then all would be revealed, but not, of course, in a public forum. Then again perhaps not.


Oops, yes I missed that :mrgreen: .

Fuzzy logic, I always laugh when I see that listed, maybe it's because I need more experience with it :D .
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby B. Milan » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:03 pm

However I'm glad that some general amusement is being found here.


Hello David,

I beg to differ! Quite frankly, we are not really finding this amusing, You have now taken even more of our time in having to read through your lengthy posts (although I admit I find myself skimming them to save myself the trouble and boredom) and now you also seem to be upsetting our paying customers.

Thus please take this as a second warning to my first, I will not have a problem to ban you from posting in the amplification forum if it comes to that and is required (despite other co-workers informing me not to). You've taken up more than your share of the forum database (which also costs us money!!) so please respect ours and others wishes here despite your differing opinions on speakers and the like. I really do not care to have to sift through your posts more on this thread.

I hope this is clear, I'm not sure how to make it more so than I already have.
Regards,
Brett Milan
http://www.hauptwerk.com
http://www.milandigitalaudio.com
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby engrssc » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:36 pm

B. Milan wrote:I hope this is clear, I'm not sure how to make it more so than I already have.


Except to pull the plug or push the button to delete this "stuff". Apparently David doesn't care about your's or any of our wishes either. Some people just don't get it and I think we found one of those. :shock: Martin and your time is more valuable than this. And, no, I don't find it to be amusing either. :mrgreen:

Rgds,
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Re: Beyond Stereo to multiple Speakers

Postby CHRIS 037 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:46 pm

I have clicked to stop further email announcements to this thread. It now just seems to go on and on without much interest to me any longer.

Leo Chris. :(
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