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headphone optimization

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Organorak

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Re: headphone optimization

PostFri Jul 29, 2011 6:02 pm

At the risk of complete ignorance, why do you need an amp at all for headphones when you already have a weak signal coming out of the analogue outputs? I have a Delta 1010LT soundcard and am looking into best sound options - am thinking to use four channels for pairs of speakers front and rear and two channels for headphones when the neighbours are asleep. But I'd have thought running headphones through my 200W per channel amp would fry them in an instant - can I not plug them into two of the soundcard channels, or is its output too weak even for headphones?
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1961TC4ME

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Re: headphone optimization

PostFri Jul 29, 2011 6:38 pm

Hello Organorak,

If you want to see your headphones go up in smoke, connecting them somehow to the outputs of your 200W amps would do it, they'll be crispy critters in no time. That or the first time you put them on connected this way it won't matter anymore anyways, because you will likely be completely deaf afterwards! :lol:

So your amps have no headphone jack on them I take it? I also have a 1010LT but have not tried connecting the headphones directly to it, mainly because I rarely use them and my neighbors are far enough away! :D

I know others here are connecting to the 1010 but I think the signal may be a bit weak, thus the need for the headphone amp, probably makes it easier to connect them as well without special adapters and I wouldn't doubt there's a volume control on the units as well. I'd say if you have the adapters needed, try them connected directly to the 1010 and see how it sounds, can't hurt. Don't forget, you need to create a mix down channel for your headphones in order to hear everything in stereo.

Regards.

Marc
Last edited by 1961TC4ME on Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: headphone optimization

PostFri Jul 29, 2011 8:08 pm

There's a potent reason for having a good DAC/headphone amplifier if you do a lot of headphone playing. If your soundcard has a digital output (either optical or coaxial) this can be fed directly into a digital headphone amp to maintain the sound in the digital domain right up the last link in the chain when it is converted to analog to drive the headphones.

My HW setup uses an M-Audio Firewire 410 external audio interface. It has two headphone outputs which deliver a clean but low-powered signal. There eight analog outputs which can be configured in the usual fashion to send signals to loudspeakers via appropriate amplification. It also has dual digital outputs - optical and coaxial. I recently took the plunge and added a digital headphone amp, to be driven directly from the optical output on the 410. The improvement was staggering! It's as if I am now hearing all of my Hauptwerk sample sets for the first time. The noise floor is now so low that I literally can't hear any noise whatever - just the full clean pure sound of the HW samples, and with much greater clarity and presence than previously.

If you do a lot of headphone playing - as I do - I believe this is the way to go.

Andrew
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Morse

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSat Jul 30, 2011 7:24 am

For what it's worth, many headphones are sensitive enough to be driven directly from a 1010LT soundcard. There is a wide range of sensitivity among headphone specs and some would certainly not be useable without a booster amp. I use AKG 240's driven directly from a pair of 1010LT outputs that have a mixdown signal of all the other channels. There is plenty of volume, and the sound is certainly good enough for practice use or when someone else in the house is sleeping. This setup may not be absolutely optimum, but most of the time I prefer the overall thrill of the surround sound speaker system anyway.
Al Morse
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MikeDC

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSat Jul 30, 2011 10:22 am

Andrew Grahame wrote:The improvement was staggering! It's as if I am now hearing all of my Hauptwerk sample sets for the first time. The noise floor is now so low that I literally can't hear any noise whatever - just the full clean pure sound of the HW samples, and with much greater clarity and presence than previously.

If you do a lot of headphone playing - as I do - I believe this is the way to go.

Andrew


Andrew, which headphone amp did you get?

Mike
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSat Jul 30, 2011 8:54 pm

Hello Mike,

Its a "CEntrance DACmini DAC and Headphone Amplifier".

Here's the link to the page on the website of the retailer (Wicked Digital) here in Sydney where I bought it.

http://www.wickeddigital.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=53

The Audio-Technica ATH-M50 headphones I am using were also bought at Wicked Digital about a year ago. I prefer the closed style of headphones - for a tighter bass, and to avoid sound leakage into the room. Some closed headphones can be heavy and cumbersome, but I find these to be very comfortable. They sounded great through the analog amplification I was using previously but they are now spectacular through the DAC.

http://www.wickeddigital.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=53

The headphone amp wasn't cheap at $AU849 plus another $AU105 for the 1-metre optical cable to link it to my M-Audio Firewire 410, but in the end I think this has been worth every cent, especially since all of my playing these days is done through headphones! My Hauptwerk sample sets have come to life to an astonishing degree, and there's no background hiss whatsoever!

Andrew
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1961TC4ME

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSat Jul 30, 2011 10:34 pm

I'm not meaning to sound negative here, I have no doubt the above mentioned equipment does a nice job, and I haven't yet converted the $AU figures to $US debt crisis we're heading for a total collapse of the world economy figures, but a rough guess is this ain't no cheap deal.

For that kind of money, not only should it make a major major x1000 (o.k. x1000000)) dramatic improvement, like in going from listening to the Lawrence Welk show on a 1950's transisitor radio, to a live AC/DC rock concert (for those of you living down under of course 8) :D ), it also better walk the dog, take out the trash and do the dishes and laundry as well! And I don't know if even that would be enough. That kind of coinage will buy some really nice stuff.

Just my 2 cents worth. Nobody get offended here now.

Marc
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSat Jul 30, 2011 11:31 pm

Hello Marc,

No offence taken whatever. You are absolutely right - that's a big expenditure. However, in six years with Hauptwerk my only expenditure so far on the output side has been the M-Audio Firewire 410 interface and the Audio Technica headphones. Everything else has been recycled out of audio gear - some quite old - which I already own. I have seen plenty on the forum from those who have invested heavily in amplifiers and loudspeakers of all kinds, but so far I've done none of that. This is really my first big outlay on the output side of Hauptwerk, and as a headphones-only user these days it's certainly been well worth it. I like your description of how dramatic the improvement should be for that sort of money - and from my perspective it has been!

Perhaps I'm sheltered here since the Australian dollar is currently doing so well, hitting $US1.10 within the last week. At that rate of exchange you would be looking at around $US994 for the DAC and $US115 for the optical cable. However that's only a superficial comparison. These products are not manufactured in Australia, so you'd need to find a local supplier and establish what they'd cost from there, taking into account other exchange rates, import duties, retail markup and the like. Over here it's been nice seeing the cost of imported items, especially electronics, drop as the Aussie dollar rises higher. It seems we've come out of the GEC better than many. Here's hoping the US Congress can sort itself out within the next few hours!

Andrew
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MikeDC

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSun Jul 31, 2011 12:37 am

Andrew Grahame wrote:Hello Mike,

Its a "CEntrance DACmini DAC and Headphone Amplifier".

Here's the link to the page on the website of the retailer (Wicked Digital) here in Sydney where I bought it.

http://www.wickeddigital.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=53

The Audio-Technica ATH-M50 headphones I am using were also bought at Wicked Digital about a year ago. I prefer the closed style of headphones - for a tighter bass, and to avoid sound leakage into the room. Some closed headphones can be heavy and cumbersome, but I find these to be very comfortable. They sounded great through the analog amplification I was using previously but they are now spectacular through the DAC.

http://www.wickeddigital.com.au/index.p ... &Itemid=53

The headphone amp wasn't cheap at $AU849 plus another $AU105 for the 1-metre optical cable to link it to my M-Audio Firewire 410, but in the end I think this has been worth every cent, especially since all of my playing these days is done through headphones! My Hauptwerk sample sets have come to life to an astonishing degree, and there's no background hiss whatsoever!

Andrew


Since the Firewire 410 already has a DAC in it, I wonder what kind of result you would have gotten by just using a headphone amplifier and connecting it to a pair of the analog outputs. I had a Firewire 410 and that's how I connected my headphone amp. Your outboard DAC is probably a step above that which is built in to the Firewire 410, but I wonder. My guess is having the more powerful amp was probably key.

I had also connected my Firewire 410 to the DAC (a PSAudio PerfectWave DAC) in my audio system. I needed quite a long optical cable, but I hate to say I only paid about $10 for it on Amazon.com. For that test, it seemed the gain was to low to get any volume, but I didn't spend much time messing around with it.

Living in a condominium, I rely on headphones for almost all my playing too. I wish I had a house where I could fill the music room with speakers and really let 'er rip, however.
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSun Jul 31, 2011 4:06 am

Yes, Mike, the 410's own DAC headphone output was too soft, necessitating some kind of analog boost to adequately drive my headphones. The various methods I've used over the years to achieve this all resulted one way or another in noise, undue coloration or both. Without the boost, the 410's own headphone output - clean though it was - could barely reach mezzo-forte with a typical full organ registration, and quiet or solo stops faded into the distance. Sometimes I like to practice with just a couple of stops per department to focus on the notes themselves without distraction, at which point it helps to be able to bring the volume up a bit. Since the DAC I purchased also allows for a coaxial input in addition to optical I connected up the digital audio-only output of a DVD player so the DAC can now switch over and double as a CD listening station. This secondary use of the DAC does not go through the 410.

Andrew
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1961TC4ME

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Re: headphone optimization

PostSun Jul 31, 2011 6:18 pm

Hello Andrew,

Good explanation and makes sense! Glad you liked my improvement comparison. I like the organ very much and it has been my instrument of choice as of late, but would still like to see those guys in concert (not Lawrence Welk)!

I appreciated being able to thow a few jabs around here and there on the forum without a person getting offended, it's all meant in fun. You guys down under have always been OK in my book!

If a person is mainly limited to using headphones, and purchasing speakers, amps, etc., would be a waste of money because you can't use them except for certain occasions, then sure, invest in the equipment needed to make your headpone experience the best it can be. Under those circumstances I would likely do the same and makes total sense as long as I end up feeling it was worth the investment. What matters most is a person is happy with what they bought, and soon the price paid is secondary. The old saying, "you get what you pay for."

Yes, this upcoming week ought to be interesting. We need the boys in Washington to step up, quit campaigning, pointing fingers and positioning for 2012, and put a serious debt reduction deal on the table for the good of all and get their fiscal house in order.

Enough of my politcs for today!

Have a good one there!

Marc
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Andrew Grahame

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Re: headphone optimization

PostMon Aug 01, 2011 4:42 am

Thanks Marc. A good laugh goes a long way!

Andrew
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1961TC4ME

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Re: headphone optimization

PostTue Aug 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Hello Andrew,

We need more good laughs! Life (and organ playing) can get a little too serious if we allow it to.

Have a good one there!

Marc
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