Search:
Submit Search


ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby Fokko » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:13 am

Dear all,

Hereby the graphics of the ARC2 measurements done in my specific livingroom:

Image

Image

Image

Until now I am pleasured and shocked about the results using the ARC plugins of front and rear. Pleasured because of my first impressions are like Jan Loosman, Pat and Don have described before. However as I mentioned a few day ago on the dutch forum, the adjusted sound is that different I have to get used to it. Another thing is, the low seems to me too weak, but clear. I think I have to play more and more discover samplesets again.
I am shocked because I earlier have invested in Genelecs (front: pair of 8040 with sub 7060 and rear: pair of 8050) for the for the very flat respons they should given. But not in my specific room.
Well, I have discover a lot more.
Enjoy Hauptwerk!
Fokko Horst
Fokko
Member
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:48 am
Location: Zwolle Netherlands

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby pat17 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:18 pm

Hi Fokko, happy you enjoyed it! 8)

As for the Genelecs it's absolutely normal you didn't get a flat audio frequency response - how linear they can be, your perception will always be biased by the room acoustics. Arc 2 has allowed you to go one step further - get rid of your room acoustic imperfections!
User avatar
pat17
Member
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:53 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby pat17 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:56 pm

I have given a try yesterday to DIRAC. I'll not hide it was not conclusive, but it's not due to the software itself... :oops:

I'll just share the few impressions I had on the program, although I didn't go through all the process.

Registration is easy, download pretty fast (around 30-35 MB).You must make sure your computer is connected to the internet, as it checks permanently you are a registered user when activating your license, but also when measuring the room! Rather than that, installation is hassle free.

Surprisingly, like ARC 2, the package consists into two softwares - one for measurement (DIRAC Live Calibration Tool), and the other one for managing the filter correction (DIRAC Audio Processor). This split was understandable for ARC 2, since the correction must be used under a VST host, but it was a bit more difficult for me to understand it with light and standalone DIRAC.

ARC 2 is stereo only. DIRAC allows more flexibility - up to 7.1 and even more through manual configuration.

Measurement in itself it rather easy. you have the choice between three configurations - chair, soda and auditorium. I selected the sofa and went for the 7 measurements -

Image

To be noted unlike ARC 2, which generates "plops" into your speakers, DIRAC is using this deafening pink noise. Process is done fairly quickly. I used my Behringer ECM8000, but you can used whichever microphone you want (including USB ones). To be noted my microphone is not calibrated, and DIRAC was proposing calibration files for the XTZSOUND Pete was mentioning only.

Measurements are quite interesting -

Image

... to be compared to what I got with ARC 2

Image

A lot of similarities between the two measurements, as you can see - what makes it difficult to compare is DIRAC consolidates both channels on one graph whereas ARC 2 is showing two curves.

Process is then exactly like to ARC 2: you build your own correction curve, either by default - as suggested by the software - or by implementing some modifications in the "target" curve. As for me, I tried without any modification -

Image

You will notice the default target curve (orange) is not flat - it boosts bass frequencies, and tends to minimise treble ones. This is precisely what I have done with my ARC2 target by the way, after a few experimentations - a real flat curve feels lifeless to me. Correction (in green) looks graphically as impressive as the one obtained on ARC2 (herebelow in white)

Image

Alas, I cannot go any further. I didn't want to affect the Reaper + ARC2 setting, and obviously, it was preventing DIRAC to work properly - when I tried to listen to the sound after correction under DIRAC, it's as if nothing had been done. Most probably I've done something wrong for setting the DIRAC Audio Processor on my Mac. I have the feeling though the result must be very similar to ARC2, considering all other aspects are alike. By any means, it's worth trying for those interested to explore the acoustics correction world - no trial is possible with ARC2. :wink:
User avatar
pat17
Member
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:53 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby Jan Loosman » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:31 pm

Hello Patrick

Impressive results. It's a pity that you can't try the results with Hauptwerk. The graphics look almost identical.
If you want to explore room correction then is is a nice option to try. But i think eventually Arc will be the best option regarding the price, the included mic and the proven results with Hauptwerk.

Thanks :!:

Regards Jan
Jan Loosman
Member
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: The Hague, Netherlands

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby pat17 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:09 am

Hi Jan,

I fully agree with you.

The main point is indeed to be able to compare the corrections done by each software. Though the process is very similar in both cases, the fact each of them rely on different kind of measuring sound type might infer a difference in the level of performance as well. But this is only guess from my side.

Besides, DIRAC allows natively to test a multi-channels setup, whereas ARC2 requires some tweaking to do so.

This being said, when decision to go to room accoustic correction is taken - considering the pricing level of ARC2, and the impressive result obtained through the software, it's clear for me this is the best value for money.

A quick comparison gives the following result -

- DIRAC: Live Room Coorection suite (650 €) + Microphone (Berhinger ECM 8000: 48€ or XTZ Microphone to Dirac : 110 €) = 700 € (760 € with XTZ), equivalent to $ 935 / $ 1,015 according to the selected microphone model.

- ARC2 : boxed product (transportation fees to be added in certain cases) 245 € + Reaper discounted license 45 € = 290 € equivalent to $ 385.
User avatar
pat17
Member
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:53 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby Fokko » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:04 am

Dear all,

Unfortunately using Reaper and Arc2 does take too much CPU load with much less polyphony as a result.
See my earlier post.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12056
I wonder if the settings in Reaper are done right.
Any help would be appreciated. Please reply on the topic above.

Fokko
Fokko Horst
Fokko
Member
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:48 am
Location: Zwolle Netherlands

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby pat17 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:34 pm

A quick update in case you want to use a DAC with Arc 2. It works, but is requires a bit more attention than if you stick to the traditional external sound card.

In the case of an external sound card, the room acoustics measurement phase is done with the microphone supplied with Arc 2, hooked to the the sound card itself. It allows then a perfect synchronisation between sound recording and sound generation during the process, thus ensuring consistent result and then accurate correction through the software.

I have decided recently to go to a different path, and look for DAC instead of sound cards. DACs usually do not have microphone inputs, then requiring to hook it directly to the computer through a XLR/USB interface (I selected a Shure X2U for that purpose). The result was quite surprising at first -

With a Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100

Image

Then with a PS Audio NuWave DAC

Image

To be compared with a Apogee Duet (sound card)

Image

I first used a workaround by selecting a measurement obtained through the Duet, although the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic was hooked to the Mini.

I was not fully happy to the result, as if a serious improvement were obtained thanks to the DAC, the overall result was affected by some of the frequencies to be too present / brilliant.

Since I decided to move forward to higher range DACs, and after I selected the PS Audio, came the question of the room acoustic measurement. My first attempt is shown here-above. Better than with the Cambridge, yet still not satisfactory. :oops:

Through discussions on Home Theaters forums, the explanation of the problem became gradually clear to me. DACs are usually connected in USB, in a specific asynchronous mode so as to make sure the DAC's clock is used for the conversion instead of the internal Mini's one. Since the microphone on the other hand is using the Mini's internal clock, it generates a synchronisation issue between the two clocks explaining the poor result.

The solution is then to select another type of connection between the computer and the DAC. I chose the Toslink one - easiest to implement in my case. The result is as follows -

Image

Much closer to the one obtained with the Apogee Duet.

After the test was done, I reconnected the NuWave in USB. The result is now just perfect! 8)
User avatar
pat17
Member
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:53 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby David Baldwin » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:45 pm

There is an aweful lot of technical things here which are currently outside my experience. I however been considering using arc2. My equipment is setup in a third floor bedroom. The room includes the house eaves and behind a panel runs the central heating system pipes for each room. The floor is a laminate. I have two studio monitors on floor stands. I am very conscious of a lot of bass resonance from the speaker nearest the eaves. I has wondering whether using arc2 would help me with my problem.
I was a bit worried about one of the comments that my polyphony would be halved. Whilst I have it, I don't currently use Reaper.
(Dr.) David G. Baldwin
User avatar
David Baldwin
Member
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire, UK

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby pat17 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:33 am

David Baldwin wrote:There is an aweful lot of technical things here which are currently outside my experience. I however been considering using arc2. My equipment is setup in a third floor bedroom. The room includes the house eaves and behind a panel runs the central heating system pipes for each room. The floor is a laminate. I have two studio monitors on floor stands. I am very conscious of a lot of bass resonance from the speaker nearest the eaves. I has wondering whether using arc2 would help me with my problem.


Hello David,

Actually Arc 2 corrects the room acoustic within a specified perimeter only. It all depends how you set it.

To make this point clearer, one has to explain how Arc 2 works.

You must first measure your room acoustic. The software comes with a dedicated microphone, which you have to hook to your sound card. You must then select at least 7 spots (if I remember well) within your room, where you want the correction to be noticed. It can be for a very narrow environment (e.g. a two seater) or for a large one (e.g. most of the room). I have not personally tried different kinds of settings - living alone, I chose to "correct" only the bench area and the area just behind it so I cannot say if going narrower or larger can affect the correction in the end.

As a second step, the room acoustic measurements will be exported in your DAW - in your case Reaper since you already have it - where Arc 2 is going to generate an ad hoc correction.

As a result, although the eaves are at the bottom of your bass issues, its effect shouldn't be heard within the perimeter covered by your measurements. I'm not sure though the eaves themselves can be treated this way.

I was a bit worried about one of the comments that my polyphony would be halved.


If I am not mistaken, you are referring to Lauwerk's comment on the impact Arc 2 had on his setup's latency.

I cannot comment much on that, since I am more a Mac guy than a PC one when it comes to computer acoustics, yet I have the feeling this issue is more specific to his own environment than a general rule to be applied to everyone. Again, I have no personal experience about it... it might be better to have this point confirmed by someone more knowledgeable than I am... :oops:
User avatar
pat17
Member
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:53 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby Jan Loosman » Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:38 am

Hello Pat

Did you make the correct measurments? Because i noticed that the left and right channels are identical and if i check your former measurments then they are different. Did you measure your stereo channels in mono mode?

David.

In my setup polyphonie or latency are no issues, but some have problems. Lauwerk had some lateny problems but playing with a buffer size of 512 or better 256 gives a very playable setup.
Fokko had problems with polyphonie but i think al is related to the hardware side. The more powerful your system with a low latency soundcard then Arc wil give no problems.
I know some people on the Dutch forum that use Arc without the problems described.
If you have room resonances Arc wil give for certain a marked inprovement of your sound with a increased clarity of your system because Arc also corrects phase problems in speakers.

Regards Jan
Jan Loosman
Member
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: The Hague, Netherlands

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby pat17 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Jan Loosman wrote:Did you make the correct measurments? Because i noticed that the left and right channels are identical and if i check your former measurments then they are different. Did you measure your stereo channels in mono mode?


Hello Jan,

Yep I did. It was just the screenshots were done with the Combined L+R correction on. If removed, the result is as follows -

Image

To be compared to -

Image

Byt the way, you have a very sharp eye! 8)
User avatar
pat17
Member
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:53 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby Jan Loosman » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:09 pm

Hello Patrick

Yes you are right with combined lr correction you get the same graph. I always play without combined LR correction because i discovered that with some pedal notes there were stil some resonnances which disappear If i uncheck this.

Regards Jan
Jan Loosman
Member
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: The Hague, Netherlands

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby pat17 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:51 pm

Jan Loosman wrote:Yes you are right with combined lr correction you get the same graph. I always play without combined LR correction because i discovered that with some pedal notes there were stil some resonnances which disappear If i uncheck this.


Hello Jan,

This is quite an amazing thing with Arc 2! :shock:

When I started to use the program my audio interface was the Motu Ultralite Mk 3 Hybrid, with which I preferred not to use the Combined L+R Correction. Now I am with the PS Nuwave DAC, it sounds better if it is on...
User avatar
pat17
Member
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:53 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby David Baldwin » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:12 am

I am getting close to buying arc2. But my PC does not have an xlr input. So what is recommended for this largely one off procedure.
(Dr.) David G. Baldwin
User avatar
David Baldwin
Member
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire, UK

Re: ARC ROOM CORRECTION

Postby Jan Loosman » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:45 am

Hello David

This input is used for the microphone. You must have a xlr cable connection with 48 volt phantom power to perform the measurments. It is usually located on your sound card.

Regards Jan
Jan Loosman
Member
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: The Hague, Netherlands

PreviousNext

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests